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The Official Movie Thread

Discussion in 'GMD Social Forum' started by Manic Ferocity, May 4, 2007.

  1. challenge_everything

    challenge_everything Active Member

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    Of course they were lured there, but the students don't know that at the time, they obviously each have their own reasons for wanting to go.


    I think that goes to a separate theme, connected to his indifference and neglect toward Dani. She's obviously the one who makes the call to sacrifice him.
     
  2. CiG

    CiG Infrared Horizon

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    Obviously, but how is that tourism? Probably shouldn't include a plot location nobody organically wanted to go to. That'd be like if I invited you and some of your friends to my house and then had a cult I belong to kill you all, is that tourism or did I invite you somewhere with fucked up intentions? I know I sound a bit autistic and nitpicky here. :lol:

    That gets into the bit I find completely unrelatable and frankly, unrealistic to the point of detriment. Yes distant and cold partners exist, but Dani is portrayed as basically a saint, plus her whole family dies right at the start, yet not only does he neglect her but all his friends treat her like someone farted in a windowless room. Any chance you're going to be invested in any of the characters or any of their relationships with each other is trashed from the get-go. At least that's how I felt. This wouldn't be as much of a problem if much of the impact of the film wasn't wrapped up in said relationships.
     
    #17142 CiG, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  3. TechnicalBarbarity

    TechnicalBarbarity -TheNightsBane-

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  4. challenge_everything

    challenge_everything Active Member

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    Just because people were convinced to go under false pretences, doesn't mean they didn't want to go. The Josh character wanted to go for his PHD research and his interest in quaint cultures. Mark, and perhaps also Christian, wanted to go as kind of a hedonistic lads' trip. Unless you're the sort of person whose idea of tourism is limited to Kontiki tours and P&O cruises, I really struggle to see why you wouldn't consider that tourism. Cultural tourism is a big industry, from visiting hill tribes in South East Asia, staying with the Saami in northern Scandinavia, yoga retreats in India, ayahuasca purges in South America. You don't need to be paying a tour company to be a tourist doing those things. Plus if I get invited by a mate to visit him in another country, I'd still consider myself a tourist.

    I didn't find that as unrealistic as you but I'm not really going to defend that part.
     
  5. CiG

    CiG Infrared Horizon

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    I don't disagree with any of that, just seems like you're conveniently ignoring the whole Pelle subplot, and the goals of all the cult members who go abroad to strike up "friendships" with natives. But whatever it's a small disagreement heh.
     
  6. CiG

    CiG Infrared Horizon

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    Watching:

    gfhfgdh.jpg

    This is fun as hell, like a mid-90's script JCVD rejected that then got dusted off in 2017 lmao.

     
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  7. Einherjar86

    Einherjar86 Active Member

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    Regarding tourism, a place doesn't have to be well-known for it to count as tourism. Plenty of tourists constantly seek off-the-map locations, rare sites, little-known pilgrimages, etc. That doesn't make them not-tourists simply because they've chosen an uncommon destination.
     
  8. rms

    rms Active Member

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    Weren't you saying that you disliked Joker because it did the whole explain thing? Isn't that how Us ended? Lupita telling us what everything meant because God forbid film making do that :lol:
    definitely got this vibe more than horror during the first viewing. Hostel but for really rich academic types? :lol:
     
  9. Einherjar86

    Einherjar86 Active Member

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    The difference here is that Us was a funny, tongue-in-cheek horror. Like Get Out, I think Peele's brand of horror is delightfully humorous. The exposition wherein Red explains the purpose of the underground lab was so hackneyed as to be little more than voyeuristic indulgence. Peele's just catering to middlebrow audience desires, and those who realize that get the joke. It’s Peele’s throwaway explanation for a plot point that is, ultimately, irrelevant. I don't care that he included it because it was laughably inconsequential and derivative, and Peele's certainly aware of that.

    By contrast, Joker was a deadly serious film with no sense of humor. And my comment about telling us everything was more in reference to the Joker as a figurative expression of anarchistic social angst. He's a more powerful character when we don't know where he comes from, and Phillips's film proved this. It couldn't decide what it wanted to say about Arthur Fleck. Was his violence provoked by socioeconomic inequities? If so, this is a splendid critique of the Batman narrative, since Bruce Wayne's superpower is basically that he's part of the 1%. But Joker muddies this reading by placing Arthur's mental illness front and center; so now, it's not poverty and wealth that are the problems, but mental health. It's just an unclear and imprecise story, when it clearly wants to be something insightful and meaningful. I'll take Nolan's/Ledger's Joker over Phoenix's any day.

    And lastly, I'm just fed up with method acting. I think it's a dumb fucking technique, and I hate how Hollywood fetishizes it, heaping praise on all these actors who really "get into" their roles. It's just boring and awful. It speaks to this notion of being able to "relate" to characters, which I think is a bane on modern cinematic narrative.
     
    #17149 Einherjar86, Jan 15, 2020
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  10. TechnicalBarbarity

    TechnicalBarbarity -TheNightsBane-

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    "butbutbut it only haz to be abouts one thangg and not da other" :lol:
     
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  11. Einherjar86

    Einherjar86 Active Member

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    It doesn't have to be, but the two readings undercut each other. I think it would have been a more powerful and poignant film if Arthur had simply been a socially awkward poor boy.
     
  12. TechnicalBarbarity

    TechnicalBarbarity -TheNightsBane-

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    ... im sorry but you clearly are not familiar enough with the character to say something like this. And i also disagree with your statement on a whole, the fact that his problems are multifaceted is much deeper than a movie that's just about a poor dude who's mad at the world. The Joker is a fucking lunatic first and foremost ... and while Ledgers performance as the joker was top notch, Pheonix's is much closer to the source material(the books).
     
  13. rms

    rms Active Member

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    Sorry to give an impression I was interested in the joker, haven't seen it and probably won't because it looks bad

    But, what is your take on Us then? It's Peeles attempt to masquerade as an intelligent horror flick as tongue in cheek greatness?
     
  14. Einherjar86

    Einherjar86 Active Member

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    It would make the character deeper, but it doesn't make the film any deeper--mainly because the film doesn't do enough work clarify how these elements stand in relation to one another. It just throws a bunch of shit at the wall. There's a lot going on in Joker, but it's not all presented in a thoughtful way.

    Establishing his poverty as the central motivation behind his actions, combined with his hatred for the Waynes, would be a brilliant commentary on the understated privilege of Batman's heroism--i.e. that he's a superhero because he's rich. In that respect, Arthur would be a more conflicted antihero because he would have the capacity to weigh the moral/ethical consequences of his actions. His mental illness undercuts that possibility, and reinforces the idea that violence is the only option for the mentally ill (the social lesson of this cautionary tale being "take care of your mentally ill, or they might kill you"--which is a somewhat reductive treatment of mental illness).

    But all this is aside from the fact that I do still think the Joker is a more effective character without the origin story. I haven't read The Killing Joke, but I'm inclined to think it wouldn't change my mind.

    I'm not familiar with the character's textual history, but I don't need to be in order to talk about the film. I can appreciate that you've read the graphic novel; but as an adaptation of the graphic novel, the film can't rely on its source material to excuse directorial choices that muddy its narrative. I think Joker had a lot to say, but didn't say any of it particularly well.

    I think it's a satire of the American family, dressed up as gimmicky horror. I wrote a longer thing about it a while back: https://experimentalitymusings.blogspot.com/2019/08/family-matters-creepy-kids-inept-adults.html

    Relevant portion here (has spoilers):

     
  15. TechnicalBarbarity

    TechnicalBarbarity -TheNightsBane-

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    Im talking about your take on why the character study is flawed, not just the movie. And while i agree on some of your complaints on film, you indeed do have to be familiar enough with the character(i said books, a history that spans back 80 years not just one graphic novel) in order to criticize his characteristics. It makes zero sense for you to want him to be just a "socially awkward poor dude" and then knock on a movie which is based on the character in those books for not going in that direction. This was a movie about the Joker, not the Joker you want him to be.
     
    #17155 TechnicalBarbarity, Jan 15, 2020
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  16. rms

    rms Active Member

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    this perspective is familiar now, would have to re-watch but I remember this take seemingly accepting a small portion of the film as what it was about, much like i'm hearing The Irishman was really about Anna Paquin and the impact etc etc
     
  17. Einherjar86

    Einherjar86 Active Member

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    Well, critics do love subtext. But I actually think the family dynamics are pretty front and center throughout the film.

    Fair enough, I can't claim any knowledge on the character's creative origins. I stand by my comments on the narrative, but do I understand that, as you're saying, it simply wouldn't be a movie about the Joker.
     
  18. TechnicalBarbarity

    TechnicalBarbarity -TheNightsBane-

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    ... well i'll give you this ... being a poor isolated "loser" is definitely a part of his story/character, i was just saying they dont need to just concentrate on one part of his background in order to tell his story.

    My main complaints with the character(some which kind of fall in line with what you're saying) is that they took the depression thing way too far, while he was indeed depressed due to his situation in life(being poor, unemployed, unsuccessful in life etc ... dont want to spoil too much), he was never some depressed wreck like they made him out to be in the film. And the whole origin story with his mom and the abuse etc is made out of thin air. I cant fucking stand it when these movie directors start fucking with the origin stories of some of these characters.

    btw if you liked Ledgers Joker than you should definitely check out Brian Azzarello's Joker graphic novel.
    [​IMG]

    The Killing Joke is also mandatory as far as his origin story goes and is a quick read, you'd probably blast through it in less than an hour.
     
    #17158 TechnicalBarbarity, Jan 15, 2020
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  19. CiG

    CiG Infrared Horizon

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    > "seek"
    > "chosen"

    twstg.jpg

    Pretty fucking poignant message for America though.
     
    #17159 CiG, Jan 15, 2020
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  20. Einherjar86

    Einherjar86 Active Member

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    Not sure I follow the distinction you're making, as I used both words colloquially. But I don't mean to make a big thing out of this--I do think you're right that the film largely forecloses any relatability with its characters (I just don't happen to see that as a bad thing).

    It's true, and sometimes a kick in the teeth is what audiences need. I just wish Joker had done it more calculatedly.

    Thanks for the suggestions, I'd like to read more of the graphic narratives someday.

    I should say: one thing I think Joker did well was handle the racial dynamic between Arthur and other characters. I thought it was very purposeful that almost all the poor characters he interacted with were black. And it resisted the white savior narrative, instead portraying black characters who were, by and large, trying to save Arthur.
     

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