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What do you think about Iconoclast?

Discussion in 'Symphony X (Unofficial)' started by clafalc, Sep 6, 2011.

  1. Marwen

    Marwen Five Align

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    yep, and since we're talking about one song (and maybe some from DG), it's not an album, which means it would either end up as a bonus track or some fan club thing.

    Speaking of which, I seem to recall Jax saying it was going to be redesigned or something. What happened? Is it open now?
     
  2. Harris The Epic

    Harris The Epic The Keyboard Guy

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    I never said I wanted the whole album to be redone. I said I wanted A Lesson Before Dying to be redone.
     
  3. AsoTamaki

    AsoTamaki Member

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    Wait, lol. We've had the re-recording songs from the debut conversation before, but what DG tracks would you want redone and why? So they can replace Miller's excellent work with another layer of rhythm guitar? Or so Russell can sing his parts an octave lower?

    Come on.
     
  4. Isaac_de_Moorea

    Isaac_de_Moorea Silent Member

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    I think the re-recording of ALBD may be a good opportunity to SX to get the newer (but smarter) fans to their proggiest and older stuff.


    Yeah, I forgot Babylon! :)
     
  5. Kenneth R.

    Kenneth R. Cináed

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    How so? When the re-recording sounds like the same band that recorded IC? :err:
     
  6. donKyle

    donKyle Member

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    Yeah, I like Damnation Game the way it is. It has a nice "old" feel to it.
     
  7. Kenneth R.

    Kenneth R. Cináed

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    Maybe we could update iconic works of art and literature while we're at it. Who wants to petition some italian guy to paint a ceiling over the Sistine chapel in his own, modern interpretation with modern tools?

    Good god you people defending the re-record mentality are exactly what is wrong with mainstream consumer media and why the majority (yes, look it up) of film is now reboots or other crap that is re-done. Same with books and music.
     
  8. RuRoRul

    RuRoRul Member

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    I would see it as an artist taking one of their old ideas and doing it the justice that they lacked the means to do at the time (due to lacking a great singer and good production). If the option is new material vs. re-recorded debut (or just A Lesson Before Dying, since that's the one I'd most want to hear), then obviously I would much prefer something new and different, but if it's re-recorded stuff vs. nothing then I don't see why anyone would prefer nothing - if you don't want to hear it you don't have to listen, and the original won't be wiped out of existence.
     
  9. Kenneth R.

    Kenneth R. Cináed

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    That's the question though - why would the band be working on nothing? Reason implies they are working on something. How that time is spent is up to them. We can only guess and suggest. The comparison is a flawed one - they are doing something, and I'm not alone in thinking new > re-hash.

    Say what you want about the production, but the tools for "modern" aka compressed and limited, dynamic-less production are not expensive. They are as common place as anything else. I would say it is a disservice to a band to say their production is bad when they okay'd it at the time it was produced. Surely you might have an argument for the debut as the band may not have had the tools or budget then, but Damnation Game? Come on, don't lets be silly.
     
  10. RuRoRul

    RuRoRul Member

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    I didn't say anything about The Damnation Game. Production on the debut and more importantly the lack of Russell Allen makes re-recording songs from that album worthwhile, however.

    Obviously the time taken to re-record something would cut into the band's time, but as long as it doesn't cut into the music the listeners get I don't see why it would be a problem. If it was a choice between receiving some re-recorded stuff or a new album then obviously I would much prefer the new album, but if they were able to deliver something re-recorded in addition to new material (or at a time when they otherwise wouldn't be making anything new anyway) then i'd be all for it.
     
  11. donKyle

    donKyle Member

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    There is nothing wrong with a re-recording of A Lesson Before Dying as a bonus track for a new album. They probably won't re-record the whole debut, and that's fine. It is what it is. But seeing how well Masquerade went as a bonus track on The Odyssey, I'm surprised they haven't done it again.
     
  12. Isaac_de_Moorea

    Isaac_de_Moorea Silent Member

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    Haha, on a second though, I think I was speculating more than a little. Well, I think ALBD has definitely more variety and prog elements than the hole IC album. And by new fans I mean guys who get into SX thanks to IC and don´t know about old SX. Also, "ALBD 2012" should be some extra goodie, like a bonus track or a fan disc/promo thing, nothing more. So, do the math (If i got to clear my point)...

    I understand your point. But we´re not asking to anyone who can to re-record ALBD to do it for our own pleasure. It´s being asked to the artist behind the song, because as one of their first works, it lacks some of the essence of posterior ones (But it´s appreciated despite it, as anyone can notice). And as their very own piece of art, it´s obviously their decision to do it and must be respected if it´s yes or no.

    If they think it would be cool to re-record an awesome old tune because at first they didn´t could made it sound as good as it can sound, so be it. If they don´t think it´s necessary or if it will be a waste of time because they need to concentrate on new material (which has to be priority to anyone), so be it.

    Yeah, from DG to let´s say, The Odyssey, I´ll say please don´t touch anything. It´s the real SX´s sound that most of us love on there, even with their own production faults.

    A re-recorded song of that "artistic" period would be something anyone should be interested on.
     
  13. Marwen

    Marwen Five Align

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    Symphony X is not mainstream entertainment.

    ALBD is not the Sistine chapel ceiling, more like a half-assed Sistine chapel ceiling because the artist didn't have the means to do it in a way that allows it to be appreciated as much as the current Sistine chapel ceiling is appreciated. Like it or not, the Symphony X album is half-assed Symphony X.

    DG? That I can live with in its current form.
     
  14. Postulate

    Postulate Have a nice day! :)

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    Whatevs, I just think A Lesson Before Dying is cool.
     
  15. UnholyCrusada

    UnholyCrusada Member

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    Well, it looks like this thread has gone pretty far off topic. So I guess I'll just answer 2 questions at once here:

    1. What do I think of Iconoclast?

    I really do like it. I think it has plenty of good songs and holds a worthy place in my CD collection. Is it the best SX album ever? Absolutely not. I still think V and The Odyssey beat it no contest (and MAYBE Paradise Lost, though every time I switch between that and Iconoclast I change my mind, so I suppose they're tied). That said though, I actually like it more overall than Divine Wings and Twilight in Olympus as a whole. Though there are songs on those two albums that are indeed better than any song on this one (DWOT, Sea of Lies, Through the Looking Glass, Smoke and Mirrors, etc.), I feel like IC has more of a "balance" to it (what I mean is, whereas on DWOT and TIO I felt a few songs were just downright lackluster, this one seems pretty consistent, not hitting any real lows nor huge highs in terms of quality until maybe towards the end of the album; make of that what you will).

    2. What is my stance on this Re-recording deal?

    I don't have much of a problem with it, so long as they keep the actual arrangements the same and just improve the quality/re-do the vocals with Allen.
     
  16. donKyle

    donKyle Member

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    As far as re-recording all of it, the music is already written. It could benefit the band because it's probably stuff they haven't looked at in a long time, and if MJR(since he pretty much does all the writing now) is having trouble coming up with ideas for new music, re-recording the self titled could possibly help spark some creative juices and get them flowing. One could argue that solo albums and side projects by other members get in the way of new band material, although they are producing new material themselves. Still, that stuff would take more time than re-recording the self titled. Damnation Game was released not even a full year after the self titled, so if they were able to do it that quickly, a re-recording of the self titled should take even less time. But like I said earlier, it is what it is, and I'm not gonna be upset if it never happens.
     
  17. Detective Clarence Beauregard

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    Going by this logic, what if they had worked on a new album and had all the tracks written and recorded, but decided to re-record a song or two from the debut album "just for the hell of it?" The implication here is that they would be used as bonus tracks; something a little extra for the fans who have been with the band since the beginning (or enjoy their complete catalog).

    As cool as it would be to hear the entire debut album re-recorded, I'd definitely rather have something new. I think most of us would.

    As far as my comments about re-recording a track or two from Damnation Game, I wasn't talking about the proggier tunes, but rather songs like the title track and Dressed To Kill. These are heavy, hard-hitting songs that aren't terribly different from the more recent style of the band. I definitely think a re-recording of The Edge of Forever or A Winter's Dream, for example, would kill the charm. And yes, I'm sure with their style as of late, Romeo would destroy these songs by adding more rhythm guitar parts, burying the bass in the mix. No one wants that.

    At the very least, the band could play one of the heavier tunes from Damnation Game live. They could easily swap a shit song like Electric Messiah for Dressed To Kill, for example.

    I definitely agree that the last two albums have been more consistent than most of their past efforts. Like you said, the best songs (hell, a lot of the songs) from their earlier albums destroy anything on the last two albums, but those earlier efforts did contain a bit of filler. Maybe I'm alone on this, but aside from a few tracks (LUTN for sure, possibly Electric Messiah and Lords), there's little filler on Iconoclast. Instead, you have filler parts spread throughout most of the tracks (Dehumanized verse, unnecessary WAIL solo, keyboardless Heretic bridge, etc.), but never enough to completely butcher any of these songs.
     
  18. UnholyCrusada

    UnholyCrusada Member

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    That's pretty much exactly what I'm getting at. While the best songs from SX's early works were... well, the best, each album (or at least the first 4 IMO) had it's fair share of songs that just feel very "meh". I don't get that feeling nearly as much in the latter half of their discography.

    Taking Divine Wings for example, the album that many SX fans proclaim as "The Greatest Prog/Neoclassical Metal Album Ever", I would personally compare it to biting into a peanut M&M if you're allergic to peanuts. On one end you've got the outer layer of chocolate in Of Sins and Shadows, Sea of Lies, and Out of the Ashes. All 3 are very good songs. Then you get to The Accolade which is of course great, but for some reason I feel it should end after the "hymn-like chant" section. The last 3 minutes or so just feel rather unnecessary and it makes the song drag on for longer than it should. Whenever it comes up on my Ipod I typically end up shutting it off right after the second chorus. From that outro onward is where the peanut comes in. The next 3 songs just scream filler for me. Some are better than others, but none leave a real lasting impression on me. But then we get to the other side of the M&M with the chocolate once more, in the form of the title track and Candlelight Fantasia.

    While the songs featured on the last two albums might not have been as delectable as the chocolate from this album (or the other previous albums) they had a very small amount of (if any) peanut. Just my two cents.
     
  19. donKyle

    donKyle Member

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    ^Interesting. I've always thought that the instrumental section after the hymn part was awesome. Starting with the chimes, and then hearing each individual part come in one at a time, adding to a larger whole. It seems so magical every time I listen to it, and it's sad to realize that something like that may never again be part of their music.
     
  20. UnholyCrusada

    UnholyCrusada Member

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    Don't get me wrong. It's a cool effect. I just feel like it shouldn't have been placed in that particular part of the song. The way the hymn part ends gives you the impression that the song is over, but then all of a sudden that part comes in and then leads up to another pre-chorus and yet another two repetitions of the chorus. It's not that I don't like that part of the song itself, but that if feels out of place.

    But hey, that's just me.

    And I say never say never. Romeo said in an interview that the next album will be different from PL and Iconoclast. Whether that means a return to the older style or something completely different is anyone's guess.
     

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