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Discussion in 'The Philosopher' started by Arch, Apr 2, 2005.
What are your views on abortion?
When they are in my phonebook.
[/bill hicks reference]
"When life begins" shouldn't even be relevant (it suggests that "life" is some sort of holy spiritual entity or something), it should be the child's potential that's taken into account as opposed to whether it's *conscious* or whatever. And, as the likelyhood is that a person stupid enough to become pregnant without wanting to isn't going to spawn or nurture anything of value, I'm pro-abortion, especially accounting for the fact that the population needs culling.
I actually studied this a bit.
During the earliest stage, the fetus has a heart and a brain, and is alive as a parasite, but it is still alive.
so Right after conception.
I'm with Jinn on this one. A zygote is fully human inasmuch as it needs nothing but shelter and nourishment the moment it comes into existence.
I'm pro-life unless the mother's life is at risk.
I don't think I know myself when it comes to this subject. Having two kids I know how precious life is, from those blobby little bean shaped pics on the sonogam to the moment of birth. It truly is an incredible process. I believe that life is from the moment of conception. I don't care if the baby is 1 day or 1 week. Maybe people's conscience is more assured when it comes to abortion thinking that killing a weeks old embryo is better than months old, I don't know. It's a baby, a child, a human life is all I do know.
With that said, in cases of rape, ugh. I just can't comment/decide for myself on that. I don't even want to think about it. One side of me wants to say what I did above. The other side of me feels it isn't right for the woman to go through that if she indeed does become pregnant. She didn't ask for that baby, she didn't ask to become pregnant. It's a scenario I don't even want to think about although I know it happens.
In cases of unplanned parenthood, for the ones out there joy riding I say smarten up and use protection. You made your bed now sleep in it. Then again, I see GoD's point and it is a logical thought process. Who wants people like that having kids. Who knows what that poor unplanned for kid will have to suffer through with knucklehead parents like that. These a-hole couples and individuals out there go sleeping around without using protection and act all surprised when "oh gee, I made a baby?!". The evil side of me wants to bust them in the friggin skull! People like this just have no regard to the consequences of what could happen. Some just don't care and default to the fact they can just go get an abortion, no big deal. It really is digusting that people like that exist. In cases of unplanned parenthood yet people were using protection. I don't really have an opinion. Probably the above description except I woouldn't want to bust their skulls Especially these people you see having 5, 6, 8 kids yet they have no money to take care ofthem properly, they use no protection. It's all a big game haha to them. You almost wish there was a government sanctioned secret parenthood police that would take people like this and tie their tubes/give em a vasectomy.
This is always a tough topic and one people are very passionate about in their opinions. There are so many scenarios though...
Go eugenics, I say!
^lol, thats a whole other discussion on its own man, especially when it comes down to basic personal interpretations of how & who that should be done too
but to the topic:
when it comes down to this arguement i am more pro life, although i also follow with the logical pattern of the childs potential as g.o.d. does (there are way too many weak people, the herd does need to be culled but i in no way would be able to do it because of some of my humanitarian views). i am not able to say exactly when life starts, but i would believe it would be after conception when development begins.
and on the subject of people who are being complete dumbasses....they need to live with it, i understand its easy for the male to just up and leave.....those types of males need to be eradicated as well, pathetic is what they are - but it takes two!
the one thing i have ever agreed with varg on is this: "if your not mature enough to have children then you shouldnt be mating." in todays day and age sex has lost most of its intimate meaning and has just become a fleshy bag fest....fuck that
ill edit this so it makes more sense later
There's no argument that "life" begins at conception. It does. A single celled zygote is alive, just as an amoeba, or any other organism. The reason we debate is because some people's morals lead them to consider abortion murder. If I step on a bug, is that murder? A barely developed fetus is not the same as a human being. Killing one is not the same as killing a human. Whether it has the potential to become so is irrelevant; that requires you to make several assumptions. There are laws against murder, because rampant murder would be very detrimental to society. Abortion hurts society in no way. It reduces unwanted children, and only emotionally affects the parents, really. The fetus dies quickly, and the procedure, while sometimes crude in its methods, is quick and does not inflict terrible suffering.
If I ever was in a situation where I had to consider abortion, I probably would try to avoid it. I can't say for sure what I would do, or what the mother would feel. To some extent, all laws are based on morality, but whenever possible, people should be left to decide for themselves the right course of action. I am an abortion rights supporter for all of these reasons.
I am strongly pro-choice, and I think MasterOLightning makes a good argument. I think a lot of it comes down to religious values, i.e. that people believe abortion is murder because the fetus is a "child of God"--you know what I mean. However, is it right to force a woman to have a baby when she was raped? When she is emotionally and financially unable to support a child? When the child will be passed from foster home to foster home, without a nurturing family? That is simply unreasonable. Similar to the argument on homosexuality, if you take away the religious dimension to the pro-life argument you are left with simple spite.
People can argue life at conception all they want.
What interests me is that once conception happens, there is a living being sharing that woman's body.
IMHO, I believe that the woman now does not have full rights to her body - she must share her body with the baby. We see this when women give up drinking and smoking in order to keep the baby healthy. It's like killing a person conjoined to his brother just because he's the weaker of the two. The baby is just as much a part of the woman as it is it's own independent being.
I wouldn't say it's like killing a conjoined twin; the subject there is capable of conscious thought. A fetus is may be technically alive, but at that stage it only has the potential of becoming a grown person, capable of thought and understanding. It is a woman's choice whether or not to share her body for that potential, and if the circumstances are adverse then it is her right to decide not to do so. Now I do believe that abortion is not a thing to be taken lightly, and people should be smart and use protection (with the AIDS crisis and everything it takes a real dumbass not to)...but that doesn't cover every situation.
Personally I would rather cut off my balls than have a child, but erm, congratulations to you, MetalAges
the woman made her choice to share her body with another human the moment she spread her legs.
If it was rape, then it's a different matter, but no whining about a woman's right to choose when she knows that penis + vagina = possible pregnancy and then goes down on a guy.
I don't feel sorry for people who want abortions, because it's their fault. you don't want a baby, don't fuck, or use protection and accept the fact that the safest contraceptive has a 99% effectiveness.
At this point I lean to let a woman choose. If they want an abortion let them have it, I dont think it is right for someone to dictate what is and what isnt morally wrong. Morals are NOT abosultes. Abortion and other moral laws have mainly been created by religious folk who believe that what they think it correct and that every one else should follow them. What I find funny is when these people end up killing people who work in the abortion clinics... Hmmm that makes sense... Yes it may be murder, if you consider killing a bug/potato murder. Everything is alive, and anything alive must die. In the end if you consider abortion murder, dont have one. BUT if you are not morally oposed to abortion then have one if you feel you must. Just let the person decide. Dont make the choice for them.
@ MasterofLightning - check out www.thesilentscream.org and you'll see that there is a great deal of suffering on the unborn baby's part. (they filmed an abortion with ultrasound) Also, an unborn baby is the same as a human, just as a baby and an old fart are human. You cannot say, either, that abortion is not detrimental to society because you have no idea what society would be like (whether good or bad) if aborted babies were allowed to live.
@ cthulufhtagn - In all my arguments about abortion (and I have had many wherein I pwned) I never once invoked religion. To say it's only a religious thing, that without religion it's spite, is foolish. And yes, I think it's perfectly acceptable for a woman to accept responsibility for her actions. Choice begins before conception. Regarding rape, the baby is also a victim.
Also, an unborn baby isn't a potential human. It's a human with lots of potential. It may not possess conscious thought from conception, but it possesses the inherent capacity for conscious thought, just like somebody in a coma.
@ Deathblade - First you say there are no absolutes, but then you go on to say that people should be able to choose? Explain this please. If there are no absolutes then you have no leg to stand on whenever you make any argument.
This is one of those issues that throws the voting masses into a tizzy. It's not worth the fuss. With all the other problems confronting us, why devote so much time to such a trivial one? Anyway, I'm in favor of abortion. The people inclined to have it are usually dysgenic and/or unable to raise a child properly. Give them a pat on the back for not disseminating their rotten seeds.
it's not a matter of a woman accepting responsibility for her actions, it's a matter of the child being forced to deal with the mother's unwillingness or inability to raise it.
Lets face it theres to many people already. a unwanted baby is not a good thing. People cant even take care of pets anymore!
What Jinn seems to forget is that it takes two people to make a baby. Funnily enough, it's always the woman who gets the bullshit about being stupid, not the blokes.
EVERYONE should use condoms or other contraception if they definitely do NOT want kids. Then this would be a moot issue anyway.
For the record, I'm all for abortion - it might not be a palatable subject, but there should still be the option to choose it for those who get caught up in stressful circumstances. And having known one woman who was attacked and refused an abortion, I would much rather wish abortion on a foetus than wish a woman to hate her own offspring.
Agreed, unless the cause was rape. I think God allows extrenuating circumstances to dictate exceptions.