This site is supported by the advertisements on it, please disable your AdBlocker so we can continue to provide you with the quality content you expect.

Welcome to Our Community

Wanting to join the rest of our members? Feel free to sign up today.

Why does it have to be loud?

Discussion in 'F.O.H.' started by ahjteam, Mar 29, 2010.

  1. beyond dead

    beyond dead heavy metal dad \m/

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2,167
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    peterborough, ontario, canada
    not necessarily, most recent albums I listen to do have real drummers, real amps and all that, they are just dont make you feel lie you are in a room, or SOMEWHERE with the band. mainly because close miced sounds are better suited for tight mixes.

    I have been experimenting with automating mics that are placed further from the source in during slow passages.
     
  2. shred101

    shred101 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2009
    Messages:
    638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I dont know man... some of the stuff I've recorded like that, one guitarist on both tracks, loads of copy n pasting, sample a bar then tack on the next bar, etc. to my ears, sounds so sterile to one-run tracks with minimal editing. Plus yeah, I hate splitting cymbals and sustained powerchords and stuff.
     
  3. GarethSE

    GarethSE New Metal Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2008
    Messages:
    7,603
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I see no problem with working like this.

    For the Slice The Cake EP I was going line by line as a creative choice, opting for the lars ulrich approach to recording. Go as hard as you can for as long as you can, stop, take a breather, rinse, repeat.

    I know that's sorta a different point, but I figured I'd play devil's advocate!
     
  4. drew_drummer

    drew_drummer Dancefap

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2008
    Messages:
    6,486
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    London, UK
    I guess I'm lucky enough that our drummer is pretty fucking tight, and he knows when something isn't suitable. There aren't really any parts on our album that I think the drums could've been tighter. The drums are great.

    For me it falls down on the guitar production, and I blame that on amp sims :p
     
  5. egan.

    egan. daylightdies.com

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    5,441
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    NorCal
    If there was a standard though of say -15dB RMS there is absolutely no reason why you couldn't master for the same sound you like and just not use the additional 5dB of headroom. What I like about an RMS limit is it takes the contest element out of mastering.
    IIRC this was actually a standard in discussion for DVD-A (though I think it was -20dB RMS) before that format died.
     
  6. MarcusGHedwig

    MarcusGHedwig Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2010
    Messages:
    3,455
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    New York
    +1, most of the vox on my EP were line-by-line too, and I'm happy with how they turned out :D
     
  7. GarethSE

    GarethSE New Metal Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2008
    Messages:
    7,603
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I could chill with an RMS limit \o/
     
  8. muckypup1

    muckypup1 Sinister Haven \m/

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,159
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    UK, Islington
    When you say something like "-8db" or "-10db" does that mean that the volume doesn't go any higher than that? Its a n00b style question but I just want to make sure I understand :D
     
  9. AerialThesis

    AerialThesis @ KMR Studios

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    346
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Longueuil, Quebec, Canada
    mp3 now mostly have a volume equalizer function that regulates the volume of every song to almost the same rms level (generally to the level of the quiestest song on your mp3)

    Stereo systems had buttons called "loudness" wich induced compression on the signal to make everything louder when needed.
     
  10. AerialThesis

    AerialThesis @ KMR Studios

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    346
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Longueuil, Quebec, Canada
    By mixing spectrally as you do, your mix might lack of fullness and punch as old record did since your killing frequencies that could have felt great and had alot of room to breathe. These overlapping frequencies would feel great if they were not being stomped by any means of compression.
     
  11. colonel kurtz

    colonel kurtz Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2006
    Messages:
    3,990
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    dear god, please yes

    i listened to chaos a.d. and badmotorfinger in my car the other day, and both sounded fucking pristine

    then i attempted listening to some newer releases, and had to just give up about 1 1/2 songs into the album
     
  12. AerialThesis

    AerialThesis @ KMR Studios

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    346
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Longueuil, Quebec, Canada
    Some songs by Deep Purple or Supertramp sound punchier than anything done in the past 10 years. And no, production methods aren't better these days than in the 70's where you used to pay 275$ per hour in a professionnal studio and would get an absolutely incredible sound.
     
  13. Uladyne

    Uladyne Greg

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,278
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Oregon Coast
    Would I be considered overly optimistic if I were to say we've sort of reached a limit (no pun intended) with the mastering wars and we might soon start seeing a gradual (even if slight) return to quieter, more punchy records?

    I know my band opted to go for a less "extreme" master, much to the delight of our mastering engineer, and iirc, didn't Iced Earth do the same thing recently? I'm sure there are loads of other examples I've never heard of.

    I mean c'mon, it's starting to be obvious that mixes are being annihilated in mastering. It's extremely annoying to hear a song start with say a single guitar playing a riff, and when the band kicks in it actually seems to get QUIETER because of the excessive compression/limiting. I mean c'mon, even the layperson who doesnt even know what compression is is going to start thinking something weird is going on there.
     
  14. colonel kurtz

    colonel kurtz Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2006
    Messages:
    3,990
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    i don't know that there's going to be some sudden and widespread uprising against loud masters...but come on, we have guys out there who are making albums that are hitting -8db RMS...things have gotten to the point where the masters literally can not possibly get any louder or strained sounding, so back down is the only way to go
     
  15. Ermz

    Ermz ¯\(°_o)/¯

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2002
    Messages:
    20,382
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    That might be where the criticisms about 'flow' originated.

    I see the merits of doing vox this way as a matter of sustaining intensity, but you tend to lose a certain cohesiveness at the same time. My preferred way is to run through the entire track, or as much of it as the vocalist can handle, and then come back around to punch botched bits, or ones that need more of a run-up, huge gasp of air etc. Neither way is perfect really, but in a genre where we are punching riff by riff, cutting and pasting everything, I try to keep as much flow as humanly possible, so drums and vox are usually done in this way.
     
  16. Glenn Fricker

    Glenn Fricker Very Metal &Very Bad News

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2005
    Messages:
    4,146
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    22 Acacia Avenue
    FWIW, the record I finished with Fredrik was mastered intentionally to have dynamics. We used the Black Album as a watermark... ....and it sounds fantastic when cranked up!
     
  17. Plec

    Plec Master of Ceremonies

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2004
    Messages:
    340
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Sweden
    IMO, a lot of people getting in complaining about the loudness wars really has no real world experience in the how, what or why of the situation. Yes, it's pretty much always been around. It seems in fashion to complain about it since everyone with golden ears seemingly complain about it, and so also must I and thus I have golden ears. :rolleyes:

    FACT:
    When comparing two identical pieces of music where one version is just half a db louder than the other, it will I dare to say in 99% of cases be considered to sound better. From experience, I don't know HOW many times I've been in the mastering studio with a client and just felt the need to boost the monitoring volume a slight nudge and the client starts expressing extreme feelings of joy about the massive change in sound I just magically brought to the table.

    When you are doing ANY kind of comparisons, whether it be EQ, compression, limiting... WHATEVER. It is said you must compare these at equal level to be able to make an informed decision. This is very true, but I'd be more inclined to state that when you are making comparisons... go overboard and listen to the change at a slightly lower playback level than the original. You can sit and match levels of before/after all day long if you want, but if you prefer the change i.e the mastered version listened back at a slightly softer level than the mix and still think the master sounds better... then you've accomplished something.

    FACT 2:
    A lot of good sounding stuff recorded in the early 90's and released on CD had a nice 0VU (-14dBFS RMS) going, but at the same time they feature very few peaks louder than -6dbFS. Analog tape dear people...

    We're talking distortion and saturation to achieve that kind of result, which is a lot more musical than digital distortion. But in terms of loudness, just putting a limiter on such a recording you would be able to kick it up to -8dbFS RMS with very little trouble. It would basically sound the same, and that's how tightly packed it is overall. If you are looking to have the same density and fatness in the digital world... you're really looking at a -9 to -8 RMS and you will end up at roughly the same feel as early 90's stuff recorded on analog tape.

    That is not entirely scientific and a lot of people would very much like to ridicule that argument since the "mission" is to bring back dynamics to where they were, in the good old days! Well... back then they HAD natural transient control, and what people are reacting to mostly is uncontrolled transients that make a recording seem spiky and thin. So basically, for the same amount of control that those old records had, you're looking at a -9 to -8 in the digital world. NOT a -14 without any kind of transient mangling.

    Try it right now...
    Open up a mix and have it sit at -14 RMS, use an accurate analyzer of some sort to confirm. You will probably have quite a few peaks going over -6dbFS. Now, just slap on a limiter adding 6db of gain and lower the output of the limiter to listen at the exact same playback level. Play a whole chorus or something, with and without the limiter and compare the feel. The latter will very much be more an accurate representation of what people mean with "the dynamics of old recordings" than just having a modern digital recording sit at -14.

    Just some food for thought. :Smokin:
     
  18. darthjujuu

    darthjujuu Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,455
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Boston
    ermz / plec > all.
     
  19. darthjujuu

    darthjujuu Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2008
    Messages:
    1,455
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Boston
    also, slipknot - all hope is gone, is an unusually quiet and dynamic album for these days.


    edit: and yes i fucking love slipknot.
     
  20. ttrentt

    ttrentt Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2009
    Messages:
    403
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Basically ERMZ said what I said in a lot more detail. I just think some shit sounds better when mastered loud.
     

Share This Page