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Why does it have to be loud?

Discussion in 'F.O.H.' started by ahjteam, Mar 29, 2010.

  1. ahjteam

    ahjteam Anssi Tenhunen

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    You gotta be fucking kidding me. It's -9dB RMS. Constantly. Equaling LOUD AS FUCK
     
  2. darthjujuu

    darthjujuu Member

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    wat o_0 ?? maybe i have a weird rip. yes i apologize, i didn't buy it. it's so quiet and dynamic that i wouldn't be surprised if it were a pre-master leak of the final mix
     
  3. Ermz

    Ermz ¯\(°_o)/¯

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    That about says it all for me.

    Mastering 'hot' in the digital realm is a form of transient control, and as such there is a sweet spot for any mix. One of my earlier works I still regret when listening back due to the mastering level being slightly lower and my own transient control having been subpar in prior years. As a result the drums just sound way too spiky and harsh, with not enough actual body.

    This is in fact a reflection on a massive problem that can be had with the widespread Slate samples. They are already so compressed, transient designed, and the attacks are so in your face that the additional slow attack compression people do just make their mixes sound like "dundun POP dudndun POP dundun POPOPOPOP" without incorporating some intense limiting, clipping, saturation or other forms of transient control. I know because I fell down that hole some years ago, and it took a little while to come back from it and start getting normal drums again.

    One of the best ways I've found to get natural transient control back is to use the Alex B SSL programs for Nebula. The harshness and prominence of transients instantly diminishes, which is doubly helpful in the digital realm since ITB compressors commonly have very clean and harsh attacks. Staging these plug-ins on channels, busses and the master bus gives you an incremental softening and saturating effect which both increases perceptible volume and gives you more headroom to work with. Tools like this I've come to find indispensable when working ITB due to the 'clear glass pane ' nature of the medium.
     
  4. John_C

    John_C formerly Skeksis268

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    This thread is proving very interesting. Keep it up people
     
  5. AerialThesis

    AerialThesis @ KMR Studios

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    If I understood correctly, you are pretty darn right, but even tought the tape itself compresses the signal, digital mixes of these bands have sometimes over 15 dbs of macrodynamics troughout single songs and peaks that bounce alot by about 10 dbs with still alot of headroom most of the time. Recording on tape to get that natural fatness is great! mixing the whole thing in digital with no limitations on dynamics is absolutely awesome!
     
  6. waltz mastering

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    Most of the stuff from that era had a crest factor (difference between peak and rms) of 15 to 12 dB.
    Are you saying it is 8 and 9 dB?

    ?
     
  7. Nuno Filipe

    Nuno Filipe You talkin' to me?

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    [​IMG]
    Because Rick Rubin said so.
     
  8. GarethSE

    GarethSE New Metal Member

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    This is where it's at.

    GLOVES OF ETERNAL QUIET MASTERING
    +5 LISTENING PLEASURE
    +10 PUNCH
    -7 HARSHNESS
    +1 RESPECT

    Req. Level 80 Ears
     
  9. GarethSE

    GarethSE New Metal Member

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    Wouldn't you just love to kick him in his smug little bearded face?
    I would.
     
  10. GarethSE

    GarethSE New Metal Member

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    And apolagies for triple post (M-M-M-MONSTER KILL!) but I have one more thing to add.

    I suggest everyone check out Demilich - Nespithe and crank it up really really loud. It sounds SO damn good.
     
  11. freakkguitarist

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    i honestly think its beause of ipods.... people want to shuffle through songs and have "their" song sound as "HEAVY" as *insert any band here* and when you shuffle around songs alot, volume differences sound like intensity differences to the untrained ear....... i love my volume knob......i can make any cd loud! :)
     
  12. Full_Tilt

    Full_Tilt Member

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    And this is where the loudest mixes will suck the most .
     
  13. John_C

    John_C formerly Skeksis268

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    [​IMG]

    To me, metallica sounds quiet, could be louder and it wouldn't hurt it. RATM sounds great, SYL is a bit squished, you lose a lot of punch in the higher speed sections, Borgir is clipped to shit and hurts my ears, pity
     
  14. Plec

    Plec Master of Ceremonies

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    If you look at average on 0VU recordings from back then like Ride The Lightning, you have very few peaks going over -6dbFS. There are of course, but they have little musical impact. Stray shooters that could easily be limited down to -6bFS straight while keeping the musicality. Now if you were to just raise the level those 6db's you would have an average of -10 > -8dBFS RMS.

    So, the point being that taking into the consideration the saturation and distortion of the time that enable you to take one of those recordings today and push them up to -10 or -8dbFS RMS with extremely little loss in musical impact, then that's what you might like to shoot for in todays production scenarios since the transient control you would impart on the material would make it sound a lot more like those early recordings than to just take your modern digital mix and put it around -14dbFS RMS and then wonder why if this is so dynamic and great, why does my mixes sound so thin.
     
  15. shred101

    shred101 Member

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    Thats pretty interesting. Ill have to admit that Killing In The Name would probably have to be my favourite mix out of the above choices as well but the mental picture of that song that I have doesnt "sound" like it should be anywhere near 0db.
    I didnt expect Dimmu Borgir to clock in as most clipped either tbh which is somehow ironic considering how "dynamic" some of the stuff on that album is... I would have assumed SYL to be the most squashed of the four.
    Ironic thing is that I own all of those tracks. o_O
     
  16. waltz mastering

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    Thanks. I guess it's album specific. Some of the stuff like older Pantera, Aerosmith, and Rage stuff sounds pretty open to me. Once you start getting past a 10 dB crest, it can be be sort of a crap shoot. I definitely agree on the tape compression thing depending on how hard it's hit and how it's biased, coming into play.

    I don't shoot for numbers and I know sometimes they are only used for reference, but I wouldn't advise for anyone trying at home to think that getting anything sitting around -8 or -9 dB dB based on a square wave calibration is going to end up sounding to good.

    I only mention the square wave because that's what most daws meters use. Something like the TT Dynamic range meter that is used above is based on a sine wave calibration, so something at -8 is actually -11 to me... a bit confusing when it comes to numbers.
     
  17. Deltones

    Deltones Member

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    I certainly don't. I don't know if people remember Marty Friedman's old band, Hawaii. One Nation Underground was a kickass record, even though the production was really, really cheap. However, I have a remastered CD with ONU as well as their other stuff, and it's unlistenable. Clipping all around.
     

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