John Arch appreciation thread

The Apparition · November 1st, 2007, 05:02 AM

I don't care if i'm the only person on this whole forum besides the rest of TM who thinks John Arch is one of the greatest if not the greatest singer who has ever lived. He sang on the first 3 Fates Warning albums:
Night On Brocken
The Spectre Within
Awaken The Guardian

There has never been a singer/band/musician/entertainer who has moved me on the level that Arch does. I don't think there has been a singer in metal or rock who is as artistic, inspired and has so much to say. If anyone listens to the track "Guardian" from Awaken the Guardian and reads the lyrics and isn't moved by the song, they aren't alive.

The greatest musician who has ever lived.

Ravendark · November 1st, 2007, 06:08 AM

King Diamond owns Arch .

The Apparition · November 1st, 2007, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravendark

King Diamond owns Arch .

No. He infact does not.

Aqualung · November 2nd, 2007, 12:48 AM

For anyone who's interested, we're covering the title track of Awaken the Guardian on our next release. But u didnt hear it from me....

Ravendark · November 2nd, 2007, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Apparition

No. He infact does not.

Lets take it outside then mate , or inside the mens room as the case was

Suedehead · November 2nd, 2007, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aqualung

For anyone who's interested, we're covering the title track of Awaken the Guardian on our next release. But u didnt hear it from me....

It's not a title track if the name is different.............

FerretallicA · November 2nd, 2007, 05:05 AM

This whole discussion has prompted me to dig up the earlier Fates Warning albums and give them another spin. "Perfect Symmetry" in particular has a very similar sound to Friar Rush's debut...

Would you consider "Caught Somewhere In Time" to be a title track for "Somewhere In Time" or does it fail the Shrifftegrity test?

The Apparition · November 2nd, 2007, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FerretallicA

This whole discussion has prompted me to dig up the earlier Fates Warning albums and give them another spin. "Perfect Symmetry" in particular has a very similar sound to Friar Rush's debut...

Would you consider "Caught Somewhere In Time" to be a title track for "Somewhere In Time" or does it fail the Shrifftegrity test?

This discussion inspired you to dig up a Alder era Fates Warning album? That my friend, is not early Fates. I sincerely doubt you have ever heard an Arch era Fates Warning album.

Suedehead · November 2nd, 2007, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Apparition

This discussion inspired you to dig up a Alder era Fates Warning album? That my friend, is not early Fates. I sincerely doubt you have ever heard an Arch era Fates Warning album.

Just take a good, hard look at what you've done here, Ferret.

Jesus.

FerretallicA · November 2nd, 2007, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Apparition

This discussion inspired you to dig up a Alder era Fates Warning album? That my friend, is not early Fates. I sincerely doubt you have ever heard an Arch era Fates Warning album.

But you can definitely agree that both singers draw their inspiration from Friar Rush? Not that Fates Warning are a bad band by any means - they're great - I just think they stuck too closely to the existing mould and didn't ever develop their own character, especially in vocals.

The Apparition · November 2nd, 2007, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FerretallicA

But you can definitely agree that both singers draw their inspiration from Friar Rush? Not that Fates Warning are a bad band by any means - they're great - I just think they stuck too closely to the existing mould and didn't ever develop their own character, especially in vocals.

Um...that statement is completely untrue. Fates Warning basically invented Progressive Metal with The Spectre Within in 1985 and Awaken the Guardian in 1986. No band sounded like them before them and Queensryche were really the only other band around the time playing and sort of progressive metal.

They were pioneers and in fact the most unique and original sounding part of the band was John Archs vocals and lyrics, not to say the music wasn't original.

Mike Portnoy from Dream Theater is a huge fan of Awaken the Guardian. He writes liner notes for the remaster of the album and basically says exactly what i said. Fates invented prog metal and were a huge influence on early Dream Theater.

Fates began to copy other bands after John Arch left in 1986 and Ray Alder joined. Parallels was definitely influenced by Queensryche and most of Fates Warnings 90's stuff was obviously influenced by Dream Theater.

Listen to Awaken the Guardian and find me another metal band that was playing music like that in 1986.

FerretallicA · November 2nd, 2007, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Apparition

Um...that statement is completely untrue.

You seem to have your history mixed up. Listen to Friar Rush's "Hold On" or "Loki" and you'll clearly see where John Arch drew most of his inspiration from as a vocalist. It was imitation, not innovation. It wasn't until he joined Spock's Beard that he started developing his own distinct vocal style. His other failing was trying too hard to be the star of the show. Some people can get away with both vocal and bass duties - like Lemmy in Motorhead or Steve Harris in Iron Maiden - but John Arch needed to focus on just doing one thing at a time and he would've been legendary.

The Apparition · November 2nd, 2007, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FerretallicA

You seem to have your history mixed up. Listen to Friar Rush's "Hold On" or "Loki" and you'll clearly see where John Arch drew most of his inspiration from as a vocalist. It was imitation, not innovation. It wasn't until he joined Spock's Beard that he started developing his own distinct vocal style. His other failing was trying too hard to be the star of the show. Some people can get away with both vocal and bass duties - like Lemmy in Motorhead or Steve Harris in Iron Maiden - but John Arch needed to focus on just doing one thing at a time and he would've been legendary.

You're a strange man.

Keeper of the Seven Cheese · November 4th, 2007, 05:53 AM

Ferret, way to work Shanus up with your lolz.

whoneedstherapy · November 4th, 2007, 05:18 PM

relentless owns!

FerretallicA · July 16th, 2008, 12:44 AM

My how time flies...
Good times, good times

The Apparition · January 14th, 2009, 08:52 PM

That John Arch. He sure causes a lot of fuss doesn't he.

razoredge · February 16th, 2009, 12:14 PM

I was drawn here by the "JOHN ARCH" thread lol . So whats the deal with Arch, he have anything going on ? I like both the sounds of Fates Warning and prefer the maturity of the later band but one has to be in the mood for the more dreary sound and subjects. Perfect Symmetry is when I got on board, the music fit where my head was at at the time. Either way both vocalists are kind of unique to my ears. Alder was great after No Exit when he got to be himself and stop trying to be Arch (my own conclusion). My former song writting comrade/vocalist and bass player was an Arch #1 guy, my pick is and always will be Tate in his younger years but Im always up to hear some new Arch . What about the Twist of Fate EP... worth the listen and still available ?

The Apparition · February 16th, 2009, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by razoredge

I was drawn here by the "JOHN ARCH" thread lol . So whats the deal with Arch, he have anything going on ? I like both the sounds of Fates Warning and prefer the maturity of the later band but one has to be in the mood for the more dreary sound and subjects. Perfect Symmetry is when I got on board, the music fit where my head was at at the time. Either way both vocalists are kind of unique to my ears. Alder was great after No Exit when he got to be himself and stop trying to be Arch (my own conclusion). My former song writting comrade/vocalist and bass player was an Arch #1 guy, my pick is and always will be Tate in his younger years but Im always up to hear some new Arch . What about the Twist of Fate EP... worth the listen and still available ?

I do agree that Alder really only hit his stride after he stopped trying to be like Arch, but i think that happened more on Parallels then Perfect Symmetry. Alder is a totally different singer than Arch and his voice isn't suited to tricky higher range vocal theatrics. He sounds great in his mid range and upper mid range with the occasional high note thrown in for effect.

My opinion is that Fates hit their peak on Awaken the Guardian and haven't come anywhere close since. Sure they improved as musicians but they totally lost that mystical and otherwordly vibe once Arch left/got fired. I listen to No Exit and i can totally imagine the crazy and amazing vocals Arch would have created.

Arch was an incredibly unique singer/songwriter and amazing lyricist.
Awaken the Guardian has such a timeless quality and is one of the few albums that i can listen to every day, never get sick of and always hear something new that i didn't notice before.

Geoff Tate would probably come 3rd for me in my list of all time favourite singers, just after Arch and Midnight from Crimson Glory, who i like for a lot of the same reasons as i like Arch.

You have to hear the Twist of Fate EP! It's absolutely brilliant. I rate it just after ATG and ahead of The Spectre Within. It's more modern style progressive metal but it's still incredibly unique and Arch hasn't lost one single note.

I'm pretty sure he's retired from music and we won't hear from him again. There was talks of an album but i don't think this will happen. Arch is too busy making cabinets now.

razoredge · February 16th, 2009, 09:27 PM

I'm opposite, Perfect Symmetry and on are still in seasonal rotation but No Exit and earlier are more like annual. I only bought FWX recently and the jurys still out on that one, it didnt hit me like Disconnected which may be my favorite if I had to have one.

I kind of always thought Dominici and the guy from Watchtower sang more in the style of Arch where the later generation of progressive vocalists were more melodic. I think Alder sang pretty darn high, no screaming but thats was a pretty high range he sang in, not easy to duplicate I imagine. I've never heard Crimson Glory.

Russell Allen has been my later voice of choice due to Geoff being past his prime. Always liked Zach Stevens too as well as The Madman himself. Currently digging Damian Wilson and McDermott, Im really late to the band Threshold but enjoying it.

So tell me about the band this site is for........ [chuckles] I've never heard them

The Apparition · February 16th, 2009, 11:49 PM

Yeah i can't hear a lot of Arch influence in modern prog metal. Probably mainly for the fact that the Arch style would be pretty hard to copy and also i know there still a lot of prog metal fans who can't stand Arch and prefer the more accessible Alder era.
I think most modern progressive metal vocalists are influenced by 80's Geoff Tate more than anyone else.

I can hear some Arch influence in Rob Lowe from Solitude Aeturnus. Particularly on the Into the Depths and Beyond the Crimson Horizon. The singer from Spiral Architect is a massive Arch fan and SA even covered Prelude to Ruin.

Definitely check out Crimson Glory. Brilliant 80's metal that you could probably compare to early Queensryche but they definitely have a sound of their own. The Transcendence album is one of my favourite albums ever.

Russell Allen is great but i think he is starting to feel the effects of age and constant touring. He struggles a bit with the higher stuff nowadays. But he has such a brilliant midrange and low tone that it doesn't really matter.

If you want to check out the Transcending Mortality just go to the myspace link in my signature.
The band is split up now but we are releasing a final EP which should be available pretty soon. There's some samples up from the EP on our myspace. Theres also some tracks from our debut The Last Horizon from 2007.

You could probably compare it to Symphony X, Conception and i'd like to think theres some Arch era Fates Warning influence in there too.

razoredge · February 17th, 2009, 10:15 AM

Cool ! Im always up to finding some good new metal that has real vocalists.

Yes Russ is no young pup anymore either but still hanging in there and as you mentioned his extremely powerful presence will get him along well for many more years... if he doesnt burn out, sadly this has been the end results for so many of the best vocalists.

Hard to believe Tate wouldnt be such an influence, the guy had such unheard of dynamics and expression. I'm waiting for one to exceed his early abilities, so far only finding Khan to come close but I havent heard them all. Arch was a whole nother ballgame but that was part of earlier metal vocals, he was the extreme

** This TM music sounds great, excellent transitions

Stormster · March 1st, 2009, 07:17 PM

I finally heard Fates Warning at Liam's house on Saturday. They're good, but as Liam said, they didn't have many "hooks," and "hooks" appear to be what im into. Catchy shit, eg. some power metal or NWOBHM

Ravendark · March 1st, 2009, 11:12 PM

Faggot

The Apparition · March 1st, 2009, 11:44 PM

Yeah Fates definitely aren't catchy in the obvious way like Priest, Maiden, most power metal and 80's trad but i think their songs are deeper and more challenging to get into but they never really get old either. Theres so much going on vocally that it sounds like a bit of a mess at first but with repeated listens the genius of Arch starts to unveil. I didn't think much of Awaken the Guardian at first, in fact i disliked it. But the uniqueness of the band made me curious enough to give it another chance and now it's my favourite album ever.

I definitely disagree that Fates Warning don't have hooks. Sure they are more subtle than your mighty epic in your face Blind Guardian chorus but they are certainly there and i almost think that discussing the chorus of a Fates Warning song is irrelevant.
Arch puts so much effort into his melodies that every section has brilliant hooks.

Anyway you probably heard a Ray Alder era Fates album. Thats why it sucks.

Good to hear you finally check them out anyway. They might grow on you eventually.

November 1st, 2007, 05:02 AM	#1 (permalink)
The Apparition Porpoise McSalamander Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sydney Posts: 1,448	John Arch appreciation thread I don't care if i'm the only person on this whole forum besides the rest of TM who thinks John Arch is one of the greatest if not the greatest singer who has ever lived. He sang on the first 3 Fates Warning albums: Night On Brocken The Spectre Within Awaken The Guardian There has never been a singer/band/musician/entertainer who has moved me on the level that Arch does. I don't think there has been a singer in metal or rock who is as artistic, inspired and has so much to say. If anyone listens to the track "Guardian" from Awaken the Guardian and reads the lyrics and isn't moved by the song, they aren't alive. The greatest musician who has ever lived. __________________ Rituals of the Oak - Australian Doom Metal www.myspace.com/ritualsoftheoak Last edited by The Apparition : November 1st, 2007 at 05:07 AM.

November 1st, 2007, 06:08 AM	#2 (permalink)
Ravendark Untrained Professional Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Blashyrkh Posts: 1,441	King Diamond owns Arch . __________________ "Women are like Starbucks. They’re all over the place, and they’re all over-priced." - Dick Masterton

November 2nd, 2007, 12:48 AM	#4 (permalink)
Aqualung You can't bring me down! Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Sitting on a park bench in Sydney Posts: 1,186	For anyone who's interested, we're covering the title track of Awaken the Guardian on our next release. But u didnt hear it from me.... __________________ -Transcending Mortality on MySpace.com

November 2nd, 2007, 05:05 AM	#7 (permalink)
FerretallicA HMAS Slagdestroyer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 6,104	This whole discussion has prompted me to dig up the earlier Fates Warning albums and give them another spin. "Perfect Symmetry" in particular has a very similar sound to Friar Rush's debut... Would you consider "Caught Somewhere In Time" to be a title track for "Somewhere In Time" or does it fail the Shrifftegrity test? __________________

November 4th, 2007, 05:53 AM	#14 (permalink)
Keeper of the Seven Cheese Metallic Progressor Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 5,580	Ferret, way to work Shanus up with your lolz. __________________ Hemina Facebook - Become a Fan! Anubis Facebook - Become a Fan!

November 4th, 2007, 05:18 PM	#15 (permalink)
whoneedstherapy Merchant of the low end Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sydney, Inner west is best Posts: 243	relentless owns! __________________ Basshole and proud of it!

July 16th, 2008, 12:44 AM	#16 (permalink)
FerretallicA HMAS Slagdestroyer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 6,104	My how time flies... Good times, good times __________________

January 14th, 2009, 08:52 PM	#17 (permalink)
The Apparition Porpoise McSalamander Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sydney Posts: 1,448	That John Arch. He sure causes a lot of fuss doesn't he. __________________ Rituals of the Oak - Australian Doom Metal www.myspace.com/ritualsoftheoak

February 16th, 2009, 12:14 PM	#18 (permalink)
razoredge Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 5,895	I was drawn here by the "JOHN ARCH" thread lol . So whats the deal with Arch, he have anything going on ? I like both the sounds of Fates Warning and prefer the maturity of the later band but one has to be in the mood for the more dreary sound and subjects. Perfect Symmetry is when I got on board, the music fit where my head was at at the time. Either way both vocalists are kind of unique to my ears. Alder was great after No Exit when he got to be himself and stop trying to be Arch (my own conclusion). My former song writting comrade/vocalist and bass player was an Arch #1 guy, my pick is and always will be Tate in his younger years but Im always up to hear some new Arch . What about the Twist of Fate EP... worth the listen and still available ? __________________ into this wild abyss, the womb of nature and perhaps her grave, of neither sea, nor shore, nor air, nor fire... but all these in their pregnant causes mixed confusedly, and which thus must ever fight, unless the almighty maker then ordain his dark materials to create more worlds, into this wild abyss the wary fiend stood on the brink of hell and looked a while, pondering his voyage

February 16th, 2009, 09:27 PM	#20 (permalink)
razoredge Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 5,895	I'm opposite, Perfect Symmetry and on are still in seasonal rotation but No Exit and earlier are more like annual. I only bought FWX recently and the jurys still out on that one, it didnt hit me like Disconnected which may be my favorite if I had to have one. I kind of always thought Dominici and the guy from Watchtower sang more in the style of Arch where the later generation of progressive vocalists were more melodic. I think Alder sang pretty darn high, no screaming but thats was a pretty high range he sang in, not easy to duplicate I imagine. I've never heard Crimson Glory. Russell Allen has been my later voice of choice due to Geoff being past his prime. Always liked Zach Stevens too as well as The Madman himself. Currently digging Damian Wilson and McDermott, Im really late to the band Threshold but enjoying it. So tell me about the band this site is for........ [chuckles] I've never heard them __________________ into this wild abyss, the womb of nature and perhaps her grave, of neither sea, nor shore, nor air, nor fire... but all these in their pregnant causes mixed confusedly, and which thus must ever fight, unless the almighty maker then ordain his dark materials to create more worlds, into this wild abyss the wary fiend stood on the brink of hell and looked a while, pondering his voyage

February 16th, 2009, 11:49 PM	#21 (permalink)
The Apparition Porpoise McSalamander Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sydney Posts: 1,448	Yeah i can't hear a lot of Arch influence in modern prog metal. Probably mainly for the fact that the Arch style would be pretty hard to copy and also i know there still a lot of prog metal fans who can't stand Arch and prefer the more accessible Alder era. I think most modern progressive metal vocalists are influenced by 80's Geoff Tate more than anyone else. I can hear some Arch influence in Rob Lowe from Solitude Aeturnus. Particularly on the Into the Depths and Beyond the Crimson Horizon. The singer from Spiral Architect is a massive Arch fan and SA even covered Prelude to Ruin. Definitely check out Crimson Glory. Brilliant 80's metal that you could probably compare to early Queensryche but they definitely have a sound of their own. The Transcendence album is one of my favourite albums ever. Russell Allen is great but i think he is starting to feel the effects of age and constant touring. He struggles a bit with the higher stuff nowadays. But he has such a brilliant midrange and low tone that it doesn't really matter. If you want to check out the Transcending Mortality just go to the myspace link in my signature. The band is split up now but we are releasing a final EP which should be available pretty soon. There's some samples up from the EP on our myspace. Theres also some tracks from our debut The Last Horizon from 2007. You could probably compare it to Symphony X, Conception and i'd like to think theres some Arch era Fates Warning influence in there too. __________________ Rituals of the Oak - Australian Doom Metal www.myspace.com/ritualsoftheoak

February 17th, 2009, 10:15 AM	#22 (permalink)
razoredge Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 5,895	Cool ! Im always up to finding some good new metal that has real vocalists. Yes Russ is no young pup anymore either but still hanging in there and as you mentioned his extremely powerful presence will get him along well for many more years... if he doesnt burn out, sadly this has been the end results for so many of the best vocalists. Hard to believe Tate wouldnt be such an influence, the guy had such unheard of dynamics and expression. I'm waiting for one to exceed his early abilities, so far only finding Khan to come close but I havent heard them all. Arch was a whole nother ballgame but that was part of earlier metal vocals, he was the extreme ** This TM music sounds great, excellent transitions __________________ into this wild abyss, the womb of nature and perhaps her grave, of neither sea, nor shore, nor air, nor fire... but all these in their pregnant causes mixed confusedly, and which thus must ever fight, unless the almighty maker then ordain his dark materials to create more worlds, into this wild abyss the wary fiend stood on the brink of hell and looked a while, pondering his voyage

March 1st, 2009, 07:17 PM	#23 (permalink)
Stormster Somewhere Far Beyond Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sydney, NSW Posts: 2,870	I finally heard Fates Warning at Liam's house on Saturday. They're good, but as Liam said, they didn't have many "hooks," and "hooks" appear to be what im into. Catchy shit, eg. some power metal or NWOBHM __________________ Blues will fuck you up!

March 1st, 2009, 11:12 PM	#24 (permalink)
Ravendark Untrained Professional Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Blashyrkh Posts: 1,441	Faggot __________________ "Women are like Starbucks. They’re all over the place, and they’re all over-priced." - Dick Masterton

March 1st, 2009, 11:44 PM	#25 (permalink)
The Apparition Porpoise McSalamander Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sydney Posts: 1,448	Yeah Fates definitely aren't catchy in the obvious way like Priest, Maiden, most power metal and 80's trad but i think their songs are deeper and more challenging to get into but they never really get old either. Theres so much going on vocally that it sounds like a bit of a mess at first but with repeated listens the genius of Arch starts to unveil. I didn't think much of Awaken the Guardian at first, in fact i disliked it. But the uniqueness of the band made me curious enough to give it another chance and now it's my favourite album ever. I definitely disagree that Fates Warning don't have hooks. Sure they are more subtle than your mighty epic in your face Blind Guardian chorus but they are certainly there and i almost think that discussing the chorus of a Fates Warning song is irrelevant. Arch puts so much effort into his melodies that every section has brilliant hooks. Anyway you probably heard a Ray Alder era Fates album. Thats why it sucks. Good to hear you finally check them out anyway. They might grow on you eventually. __________________ Rituals of the Oak - Australian Doom Metal www.myspace.com/ritualsoftheoak