This site is supported by the advertisements on it, please disable your AdBlocker so we can continue to provide you with the quality content you expect.

Welcome to Our Community

Wanting to join the rest of our members? Feel free to sign up today.

2012 Presidential election thread

Discussion in 'GMD Social Forum' started by Peter Joseph, Jul 21, 2011.

  1. Dak

    Dak mentat

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2008
    Messages:
    24,217
    Likes Received:
    2,773
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Among the Horrors
    I would imagine it would depend on what is being recycled and how. I re-use stuff all the time (grocery store bags are garbage bags, refilling cups instead of disposable, etc.), but I do not "recycle", as the process for recycling in many cases is of rather questionable benefit, and sorting and hauling recyclables to a center is a major loss of utility when the dumpster is less than a block away.
     
  2. Cythraul

    Cythraul Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2003
    Messages:
    6,754
    Likes Received:
    133
    Trophy Points:
    63
    No, I wasn't hinting at the electoral college. My point depends purely on a matter of numbers. Given the number of people who typically vote, my one vote doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

    I was actually thinking about this after I posted that. Basically I'll just say that I guess I might not vote but PLEASE EVERYBODY ELSE VOTE SO I CAN FREE RIDE ON YOUR VOTES.

    It's just another consideration for me. If it were not a loss of utility for me, then the other objections wouldn't carry that much weight I guess. It sort of breaks the tie, because otherwise the choice to vote or not to vote would probably be arbitrary for me.

    I guess the situation with recycling is the same in the relevant ways. I think democratic participation and recycling (unless it involves some kind of remuneration for me) might both count as classic public goods problems. That would certainly explain why P. Diddy has to make death threats to get people to vote.
     
  3. Einherjar86

    Einherjar86 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2008
    Messages:
    17,592
    Likes Received:
    1,433
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Vheissu
    I'm uncertain as to why you're making this point, since, theoretically, your vote does have causal power (although it's hardly measurable); so I want to be sure I'm understanding you.

    I take your statement to be a direct reply to Grant's suggestion that by not voting one accepts "by default" a predator-prey relationship with those in power. Are you claiming, on the other hand, that even by voting one is still likely to enter this same relationship, since individual votes themselves possess so little causal power? So why vote, since the predator-prey relationship isn't avoided by doing so? This is how I'm understanding you.
     
  4. zabu of nΩd

    zabu of nΩd Free Insultation

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    14,767
    Likes Received:
    681
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So what would you consider a good approach to solving a "classic public goods problem"?

    You say your individual vote doesn't matter, but by saying that you seem to be avoiding the whole problem at hand. If there are always enough votes in every election that any given individual's vote "doesn't matter", and if the majority of people who do vote always make terrible voting decisions, the system doesn't work. There are plenty of possible remedies for such a problem, I'll throw a few out:
    - provide a better education for voters
    - declare a national "study holiday" of sufficient length to allow voters to properly study the candidates and issues
    - implement a more direct democracy where voters decide more on issues than on officials, and make sure the issue proposals are simplified as much as possible to reduce confusion
    - make voters take tests on the issues they are voting on to ensure a certain level of competency

    There are risks involved with most/all of these ideas (and keep in mind that I'm only throwing out simplified versions of these ideas that ought to be fleshed out), but I think one would be hard pressed to assert that we're better off implementing none of them.
     
  5. zabu of nΩd

    zabu of nΩd Free Insultation

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    14,767
    Likes Received:
    681
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Another neat idea that just occurred to me is that every citizen could be offered a choice to either pass a competency test for voting on an issue or give their vote to someone else who has passed the test and whom they deem qualified to represent them. We could theoretically do away with the whole notion of an official legislature this way -- representatives could be established at just about any scope / popularity level throughout a country.

    Basically, you can have direct democracy if you're qualified, but if not your default option is representative democracy.
     
  6. Onslaught

    Onslaught Rodr-Evil

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2005
    Messages:
    596
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Chile
    USA always wants all the richness on fucking earth with no respect.
    Obama is shit,like Bush, and probably like his successor.
     
  7. Dak

    Dak mentat

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2008
    Messages:
    24,217
    Likes Received:
    2,773
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Among the Horrors
    So who gets to decide what the standard of competency is?
     
  8. King Richard

    King Richard Against the wind...

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2006
    Messages:
    12,649
    Likes Received:
    285
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    shit just got real in here, I'll have to read this all later after i roll a fat J and spank it to sarah palins pics

    holla
     
  9. Alteredmindeath

    Alteredmindeath Wasteland Survivor

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2003
    Messages:
    6,641
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Underneath your bed
    It doesn't matter the government already knows who they are going to pick they just try and make the people think they are voting for who they want to be in office.
     
  10. Onder

    Onder Gegen unendlich

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2006
    Messages:
    11,392
    Likes Received:
    2,024
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Prague, Czech Republic
    Fuck. I read the last page and it feels like I've heard all those things like thousand times before. Move on.

    EDIT: Seriously, every 18 (or insert your voting age) year old had to think about "why to vote" or "why not to vote". The things you guys pleghmed the last page with are thoughts that MUST HAVE been in mind of any person with the right to vote (apart from retards and stupid morons). You discuss things that are obvious.
     
  11. Pessimism

    Pessimism Endemic Vagabond

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2004
    Messages:
    10,153
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    SoCal
    It's probably because you have and this is a tired argument that, for the last five times it's been debated here, has gone absolutely nowhere.
     
  12. Onder

    Onder Gegen unendlich

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2006
    Messages:
    11,392
    Likes Received:
    2,024
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Prague, Czech Republic
    Of course. I even further edited my post because I was so angry at this. Seriously, as if you were all twelve.
     
  13. zabu of nΩd

    zabu of nΩd Free Insultation

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    14,767
    Likes Received:
    681
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Um, excuse me but I think I tend to come across new ideas and perspectives on these problems from time to time, some of which I just expressed but seem to have met with an audience who has no real interest in thinking deeply about the problems and coming up with alternatives to the status quo that they hate so much. That would be the reason such people consider these arguments to be "tired".
     
  14. Draehl

    Draehl Lurker

    Joined:
    May 31, 2004
    Messages:
    3,055
    Likes Received:
    539
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Atlanta 'burbs
    Which is why if this thread is to exist we should focus on specific candidates...

    Ron Paul and Herman Cain both strike me as genuinely good men. Even putting their politics aside they at least seem like they're not a part of the machine, haven't sold their souls, and just seem like honest guys as politicians go.

    Obama and Romney both you can tell they're both corrupt as shit and are lying through their teeth about pretty much everything. They're here to control you.

    I can't get a bead on Bachman...even though she's tea party I'm not quite sure...
     
  15. Dak

    Dak mentat

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2008
    Messages:
    24,217
    Likes Received:
    2,773
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Among the Horrors
    Among other things, Herman Cain's prior involvement in the Federal Reserve system suggests he is part of the machine.
     
  16. Einherjar86

    Einherjar86 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2008
    Messages:
    17,592
    Likes Received:
    1,433
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Vheissu
    Easy dude. On the previous page, Dak posed a serious question to your proposed competency test that you didn't answer.

    If these tests you suggest merely evaluate a citizen's knowledge of what each party stands for, I would claim that that isn't enough. Knowing that the democrats want to raise taxes and fund more welfare programs isn't going to change the stubborn mindset of someone who doesn't believe in/agree with such institutions.

    Likewise, a liberal who learns that conservatives want to offer more tax cuts to the rich and ban gay marriage won't shift his or her views by learning this fact. The type of education you're suggesting seems inherently problematic to me for two looming reasons:

    1. Better education won't alter people's belief systems; they might learn that there are third parties that offer candidates who represent view closer to theirs, but most people will also learn that third party candidates aren't likely to get elected, and thus will vote republican or democrat.

    2. If we want to educate people on more in-depth issues, such as the ethical implications of abortion or affirmative action, or ideological perpetuation of the capitalist system, or even more general issues such as the politics of each individual third party, then this will require a huge amount of money in order to a) fund an educational institution oriented specifically toward voters' competency, and b) allow those too poor to afford such education the opportunity to learn. The only way such an institution will ever come to fruition is (in my opinion) if the type of overhaul and shattering of the status quo that I'm so frustrated with takes place.

    That is, I can only foresee your idea happening if the solution you seek to affect has already taken place.
     
  17. Dak

    Dak mentat

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2008
    Messages:
    24,217
    Likes Received:
    2,773
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Among the Horrors
    Not to mention, if we are going to educate, not only who getsa to decide who is educating, but what the education consists of, and what is the standard of competency.

    Since anything that would more likely be taught in this manner would be of subjective value in nature, I must protest this option as logically invalid in achieving a more logical/rational population, which would be a more profitable goal for everyone except someone interested merely in coercion and deceit.
     
  18. zabu of nΩd

    zabu of nΩd Free Insultation

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    14,767
    Likes Received:
    681
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Pat I just forwarded you an email conversation about this stuff I've been having with some non-forum friends. Maybe tonight I'll try and reorganize those ideas into a post in this thread for the benefit of Chris/Dak/others.
     
  19. Badbird

    Badbird Never banned

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    4,284
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Ayn Rand is dead hahahahaha
    Bernie Sanders should run for president. A honest and unbrought man from Washington, who ever thought that?


    Bernie Sanders 2012!
     
  20. zerostatic

    zerostatic Damned in Flames

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2010
    Messages:
    7,581
    Likes Received:
    2,795
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    Damn...I'm flashing back to my seminar on Ancient Political Philosophy in college...your post reminds me of Plato's The Republic. Education? Fuck. In this age, people have easier and faster access to information than any other fucking generation in the history of the world, and it has made them more ignorant than any other generation because there is no respect for knowledge.

    Kudos to Zabu for some quality posts. The publics' knowledge of the American political system is pathetic, but in reality...it always has been. A few years ago, former Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor was on the Daily Show. She commented that in a recent poll more Americans could name a judge on American Idol than could name a branch of American Government. And they call this the information age...
     

Share This Page