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2012 Presidential election thread

Discussion in 'GMD Social Forum' started by Peter Joseph, Jul 21, 2011.

  1. SentinelSlain

    SentinelSlain I hate tv references

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    The USSR managed some particularly notable scientific accomplishments. Also, development and the level of technology, in the area it encompassed, increased massively with the rise of socialism.

    In the real world, some of the problems associated with socialism don't actually exist, case in point, Cuba is a net exporter of doctors.
     
  2. Dak

    Dak mentat

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    Which achievements? Can you identify which policies were supposedly responsible and then demonstrate a causal relationship between the idealogicaly socialist policies of the USSR that led to their achievements

    Also, your Cuba statement does not determine the ability of social policies to motivate people to higher levels of education or business. It is quite easy to come to the opposite conclusion merely relying on the limited information you provided and its assumed accuracy. They could be a net exporter of doctors because all the doctors are trying to go to where they can get paid fair market value in a more capitalistic nation, and no other doctors want to relocate into Cuba for the same reason.

    Back to the 2012 Presidential Topic, a pertinent article:

    LewRockwell.com: Black Swan Politics: Media Bag of tricks to mitigate Ron Paul
     
  3. SentinelSlain

    SentinelSlain I hate tv references

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    Well seeing as none of their scientific achievements were driven by capitalism, I could list all of them. I'll get back to you on Cuba.
     
  4. Dak

    Dak mentat

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    Can you show how they were not achieved by using Capitalistic methods? Or seperately, explain how they were created by idealogically socialist practices , as opposed to merely holding scientists at gunpoint and/or stealing German engineering.
     
  5. Jimmy... Dead.

    Jimmy... Dead. contemplative curmudgeon

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  6. SentinelSlain

    SentinelSlain I hate tv references

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    Well the Soviet Union existed from 1922–1991, so none of the native scientists trained before it came about likely existed towards the end of its existence. Obviously a large amount of scientists and technicians were trained in a socialist society. They were identified as talented individuals and put through university programmes. The fact that this was funded by the state itself makes it an ideologically socialist practice. I'm sure you're familiar with the MiG aircraft. Mr Mikoyan was an Armenian and I believe Mr Gurevich was a Ukrainian. While they were both born before the USSR was formed, I believe the fact that they achieved their success within it makes them valid examples. They developed some noteworthy aircraft within a socialist society. Yuri Gagarin was born into the USSR and became the first man in space. Mikhail Kalashnikov, is another example. I'm sure you're familiar with his particularly reliable and powerful series of assault rifles. He was born into Communism. As for stealing German engineering, the entire Western world owes rather a lot to what was pilfered from a defeated Nazi Germany, especially in terms of America's rocket and ICBM technology. Clearly the development from a Monarchy with a population of peasants to an industrialised society came about under socialism within the USSR and along with that they reached various scientific accomplishments that were the work of gifted individuals who had flourished under socialism.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_the_Soviet_Union#Soviet_Nobel_Prize_winners_in_science

    That award however, was awarded from the 'Free World' though, so it's hardly good for a comparison between the two in terms of number.

    Cuba exports doctors because it actually produces enough for that to be viable. I meant the government offers some Latin American countries the loan of medical staff in return for other things. Cuba apparently has the second highest doctor-to-patient ratio in the world after Italy.
     
  7. Vimana

    Vimana Member

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    I'd fucking vote for Solomon, but too bad, he's dead.
     
  8. Einherjar86

    Einherjar86 Active Member

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    The Son of David and King of Israel?
     
  9. Dak

    Dak mentat

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    A. Did they have the option to leave?
    B. Were the gains funded by taxes only or debt?
    C. Did the system show sustainability?

    B and C kind of go together.

    Yes, it is true that German engineering was a goldmine for both sides, including the AK47. So your argument currently is that a dictatorial regime borrowed industrial methods from a capitalist state, pressed its best and brightest into service, and used these in conjunction with stolen technology from a rival and superior regime to achieve limited gain in relation to the US, flaming out in insolvency with a weary and disenfranchised population in potentially one lifetime. Good job.

    Even just scanning the wiki entry dispells this notion of socialist provision (unfortunately I am on my droid which is copy/paste prohibitive), as it states that although Cuba provides doctors, some prefer to work in more lucrative industries, and that the working doctors are involved a burgeoning black market for better or quicker service.
    Also, Cuba took a big hit in general from the ending of aid from the aforementioned defunct USSR.

    Cuba is also not merely letting its excess doctors wander off freely, it is exchanging them as a human commodity of the state in exchange for oil. Slave labor sir.

    The world is not divided up by states, it is broken up into human farms. Some are just more obvious about it and/or profitable than others.
     
  10. SentinelSlain

    SentinelSlain I hate tv references

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    Instead of getting me to demonstrate things, why don't you demonstrate how America's scientific achievements over the same time period were greater? In doing that, you should consider the different starting points. When a nation prevents people from converting its currency into another's it's time to acknowledge the existence of said nation state really. You might hate authoritarian Socialism, but it was what it was.

    You know it was sustainable itself. Look at what happened late on in WWII. You're initial point was that Socialist states fail because they don't encourage individuals with talent. If the USSR failed to win a weapons race with the USA, but generally put time and effort into particularly talented individuals and reaped the rewards, then your point is moot.

    The doctors would have to be unpaid for it to be slave labour. They all likely chose their professions anyway, and I dare say getting to travel with their job is a popular option.

    My point isn't that socialism is wonderful, but that the idea that socialism fails due to an inherent problem with making talented individuals flourish is wrong and unproven. I suspect that a socialist economy may well develop on a different time scale than a capitalistic one, but given that America's own development is probably unsustainable moots that point. By unsustainable, I mean I don't see how it can react to the changing oil market rapidly enough in the future to not suffer. While socialist states, in practice, bar Cuba, are even worse at this, one of the massive fundamental flaws with Lassez-Faire Capitalism, is that any finite resource will basically be massively over relied upon until the end point, because any kind of planning would have to be centralised and made by people who have greater matters than what goes on in their life, time in mind. If I can just take a pre emptive strike against what I see as a likely counter to that, saying that 'technology will adapt' and has done, as is the nature of capitalist societies, involves making a prediction that is impossible to make.

    I think you are massively understating the achievements and importance of socialism in the time period we are discussing anyway. Nazi Germany was in no way a better Regime, plenty of top level decision making was utterly retarded and self destructive.
     
  11. Dak

    Dak mentat

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    The starting points are irrelevant for this discussion. The US came late to the space race and put a man on the moon first (assuming the official story is true.) Is that proof enough? The US was also the first to successfully utilize nuclear power in military applications, and the USSR only opened a functioning reactor for a power grid after the US declassified it's research. While the US at the time had some limited socialistic practices, the economy supporting the efforts was largely capitalistic, especially in comparison to the USSR.

    No socialist state has proven itself sustainable economically, but neither has any other form of statism.

    Also, that was not a point, it was a question, which you have not fully addressed. Also,what happened in late WWII that is relevant to your claim?

    Logic fail. I questioned, not stated, whether socialism provided comparable incentive to the individual, excluding at gunpoint, and the answer was that socialism was not capable producing equal ingenuity; either due to lack of motivation or other systemic issues. So it is not "moot".

    The dictionary says otherwise.

    I like how you said "likely". Given your other lack of fact checking I am going to reject your claim without proof.

    Regarding your comments on sustainability, I agree to a point. All centrally controlled methods eventually fail as they simply cannot plan for or adapt to, not only unforeseeable events, but the consequences of their attempts to control, both intended and unintended.

    The problem with pointing out problems in more capitalistic systems is that the problems confronted are not capitalistic in nature but due to attempts in one area or another at centralized control.
     
  12. SentinelSlain

    SentinelSlain I hate tv references

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    Why are they? Surely they matter greatly. Otherwise we're partially comparing Direct Monarchy and Democratic Capitalism.

    That's a poor point really, The USA 'came late to the space race and put a man on the moon'. How did the USSR put a man in space first then? It should have been more or less impossible going on what you are suggesting.

    I stand by my notion that individuality and talent are not systematically quashed by socialism. To the contrary, anyone who succeeds in a Socialist country in the field of Science, for example will have done so based on their own merits and early academic achievement. In a totally capitalist country, a lot of the time you first of all have to be lucky enough to come from a well to do family.

    I see two big flaws with the argument you're giving. First of all, how a political and economic system performs in a cold war scenario is far from a complete measure of its worth. Through picking odd fields, say nuclear technology or space exploration and then arguing about who was first, you can't really identify a pattern of stifling individual talent. Why doesn't the fact that early on, the USSR was winning the space race mean that America was quashing individuals talents? What about the USSR putting out the first artificial satellite?

    I don't get that. The problems I mentioned were in reference to the finite nature of certain resources. I don't see how Anarcho-Capitalism would make more oil.
     
  13. Matt

    Matt Active Member

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    Not happy at all with the debt deal, but I'm glad my student/car loan interest rates aren't going to skyrocket, assuming those bs rating agencies don't just lower our credit rating for no reason.
     
  14. Matt

    Matt Active Member

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    The only thing I have to say is that too much of either option will kill us. Laizze Faire doesn't work, socialism doesn't work, so we have to stay relatively close to the middle.
     
  15. Dak

    Dak mentat

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    Explain.

    Taking off running and then informing the bystander it's a race is an adequate example, and then we have to revisit the whole "acquired German engineering" thing.

    Any nation-state, regardless of the dominant (yet not exclusive) idealogy, is going to favor someone who is related to someone in power.
    Since there is no "totally capitalist country", that argument is flawed from the inception.

    Reference my earlier statement. It's not a race with only one participant, and hi2u German Engineering.


    Whether or not oil is finite is up for debate still, but besides that, explain how the finiteness of any given resource makes capitalism a flawed system?

    Edit: @ Mathias: Statism, regardless of it's flavor, does not work, and is slavery, therefore immoral. Compromise is only an option at gunpoint. That's why the state always employs lots of guns and restricts it's slaves ownership of guns as much as it can.
     
  16. Jimmy... Dead.

    Jimmy... Dead. contemplative curmudgeon

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    .
     
  17. Badbird

    Badbird Never banned

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    Ayn Rand is dead hahahahaha
    Any Green Party fans here?
     
  18. Matt

    Matt Active Member

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    Dak - that has nothing to do at all with what I was talking about. I've never been supportive of that or any variant of it. Opting for a middle ground does not equate to statism.
     
  19. Dak

    Dak mentat

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    So you supported Don't Ask,Don't Tell then? That 's one of the biggest political compromises in recent US history.

    Opting for compromise doesn't equate to statism, but we are in a political thread and politics and compromise go hand in hand, and both are embedded in the state machine.
     
  20. Matt

    Matt Active Member

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    So with your logic: compromise = slavery?

    And I supported DADT repeal, because it's not like flaming faggots are going to rush to join anyway. I'm just happy to not be in danger of getting kicked out anymore. The whole "battlefield readiness will suffer" argument is total bullshit too.
     

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