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"ARCH ENEMY welcomes Jeff Loomis as their new guitarist"

Discussion in 'Nevermore' started by derrickm, Nov 17, 2014.

  1. Dead Winter

    Dead Winter STAHP

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    A reunited AE would be better than a reunited NM, mainly because NM can still go on with another guitarist, while AE never really reached their full potential when they got rid of Johan. Sure Angela was good and hot and what not, but it just wasn't the same.
     
  2. Talking Backwards

    Talking Backwards Senior Citizen

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    You can all keep telling yourselves that, but then if that actually did happen, you'd just turn around and bitch about how it doesn't sound like (or isn't as good as) Nevermore anymore. :Spin:
    But whatever keeps your hope up for another Nevermore album right? You're already convinced that Jeff probably won't return for another album, so you need to keep lying to yourself about how the band is better off without him.

    Besides, the latest Sanctuary had enough of a Nevermore tinge to make it a redundant issue if Jeff was replaced.

    I just finished listening to Beyond the Wall of Sleep for the first time. Normally instrumental shred albums put me to sleep, but this album might have some staying power for me.
     
  3. Dead Winter

    Dead Winter STAHP

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    I wouldn't be lying to myself about how the band would be better off without him because I'm not a fan of Jeff Loomis. I actually want him to stay away and do his own thing while NM finds a new guitarist because I think it's best for both of them.

    I don't like his style of playing, I don't like his solo albums, and I don't like his songwriting, at least since EoR. I don't have anything against the guy, just that I'm not a fan of his playing, just as I'm not a fan of Malmsteen.

    What you can't seem to comprehend, however, is that what you say sounds like Nevermore is exactly what we want to change. The only thing that bothers me about the breakup is that they haven't found another guitarist yet, not that Jeff is gone. I'd rather NM stay gone than get back with Loomis. I want to see a different, newer energy injected into the band.
     
  4. Pitiless Wanderer

    Pitiless Wanderer Active Member

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    Perhaps you were never a fan of Nevermore...maybe just one or two albums out of 6 or 7...? Just a thought. I mean, the vast majority of Nevermore fans want Jeff back.
     
  5. Traxan

    Traxan Member

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    I really don't get this. How can you be a fan of the band and not of its chief songwriter? He's the core of the band.

    It took me forever to like the band because I hated Van's playing, but I was able to block it out by focusing on both the lyrics and riffing. I don't know how you block out the riffs.
     
  6. lorinc

    lorinc Member

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    Plus, if you're "not a fan of Malmsteen", which clearly refers to the wanky wanky soloing style of Jeff, you probably don't like Tim and Steve neither. Because they have pretty much the same neoclassical approach to solos. What about the latest Sancturay ? It is also heavy on the Malmsteen part...

    Note that this is the same for AE: the album with Johan were full of wanky solos. I've been listening to Stigmata the whole week (happens regularly) and yeah, it they can put something like that with Jeff, I'm all in. (Although, yeah, I do prefer Johan's vocals)
     
  7. Dead Winter

    Dead Winter STAHP

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    Because somewhere along the way said chief songwriter decided it was better to highlight his playing instead of writing great songs after EoR. I block out the riffs because most of them since EoR have been relatively unmemorable with specks of really great stuff thrown in there. Imagine NM without Jeff. Now imagine NM without Warrel. I rest my case.

    I totally get the Van thing.
     
  8. Dead Winter

    Dead Winter STAHP

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    Jeff's soloing style isn't wanky at all, its hypertechnical like Malmsteen's. Every solo is a million miles an hour and/or swept.

    And for the record, AE with Johan was anything but wanky. The solo on Bury Me an Angel was fucking epic. It's bluesy and they actually bend their strings.
     
  9. Pitiless Wanderer

    Pitiless Wanderer Active Member

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    But there are way more "great songs" on TGE than DHIADW. I'm curious why you look at EOR as the turning point in the song writing considering Jeff wrote all of DHIADW by himself, and it's a weaker output than EOR or TGE, but better than TOC. NM sucks without Jeff and it would suck without Warrel. You need both.
     
  10. Dead Winter

    Dead Winter STAHP

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    To me, DHIADW was actually moving in a more song-oriented direction, which I liked. The River Dragon, Insignificant, even Believe in Nothing, etc. signaled a turning point in their style, and they built upon that with EoR, which was like a more thrashy DHIADW. TGE is a good album, but there are literally two songs I'd listen to now from that album: TGE and Sentient Number 6. That's it. The rest of that album, while I can listen to it and say, "Wow, that's kinda interesting" or "Wow that's a difficult thing to play" does absolutely nothing for me. In the beginning I liked it a lot but it quickly faded away, whereas DHIADW and EoR have not. This is down to good songwriting over technical ability. Once the gee-whiz factor wears off, the only people left who like it are the ones mystified at the guitar, as if he were some sort of wizard or something. It's just scales played really, really fast with alternate and sweep picking, that's it.

    I think you guys need to see where I'm coming from. Shredding is dull and lifeless and does absolutely nothing for me. I hate it. I hate it because unless you're Steve Vai or Joe Satriani, there's no soul in it; it's void and lifeless and it is quite literally all mechanical muscle memory. You don't need to know theory (in fact, you don't even need to know theory to play guitar), you don't need to have good songwriting skills, all you need to know is where to put your fingers in certain intervals and do it fast. That's it. You have to be a great songwriter to write great music, and whether or not you can shred doesn't enter into it. Just because you can shred doesn't mean you can write great music, and that's more often than not the case. That said, it has its place...I'm not saying it doesn't. However, most shredders have diarrhea of the fingers and Jeff Loomis is one of those people, imo. He's a great guitarist like the best Call of Duty player is a great player: it's all just technical ability. Being able to play really fast doesn't do anything for me. I'm impressed that he can do it but I'm not impressed with what comes out.

    He came to a fork in the road in his playing and he chose the Malmsteen path of "more is more" after EoR, maybe even after Dead Heart. TGE came out right at the perfect time because everyone was jerking off over solos around 2005 because metalcore was huge and it was like an 80s revival on meth. All anyone could ever talk about in that album were the solos. Every single review was, "Holy shit listen to Jeff Loomis wail!", from fan to journalist alike. I don't think TGE would have done as well now as it did ten years ago, now that people have moved past that and realized that lots and lots of people play solos and can shred, and shredding neither makes you unique nor a good songwriter.
     
  11. lorinc

    lorinc Member

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    Then you probably like TOC a lot, since it is very song oriented by your definition (moonrise, emptiness unobstructed, etc) ? I always found TOC to be a crossover between DHIADW and Warrel's solo album. Especially since the solos are much less technical than the ones on EOR, TGE or even TPOE.

    Personally, I always loved Nevermore first for the riffage (e.g., No more will) and second for the emotional output of Warrel Dane (e.g., in memory). Good soloing is a bonus, but I would not reduce TGE to only that. For example, the psalm of lydia is a excellent combination of awesome riffs with insane vocals on a weird chord progression. Solos are a bonus.

    As for AE with Liiva, seriously, we're talking about that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haLOP6tg5eY Both stigmata and burning bridges are like that. That's also why they're so good: melodic death with good shredding, in the late 90s that was golden. At least I found that that golden at the time, and it had a good influence on me.
     
  12. Talking Backwards

    Talking Backwards Senior Citizen

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    I'm sure your gross generalizations are completely accurate!

    http://www.metal-archives.com/reviews/Nevermore/This_Godless_Endeavor/83688/ (funny how most of these mention riffs first, with vocals still being mentioned in most cases before solos)

    You could have just said "I know more about music than most, therefore my opinion is correct. You can't find valid reasons to enjoy something other than simply being amazed by that which you don't understand".

    I don't need to understand the development process of a game to enjoy playing it. And for the record, all of Jeff's solo albums have bored me to death. There's also a reason I don't listen to Praises to the War Machine much at all as well.

    So very much this. In fact, I wasn't even impressed that much by Jeff's soloing until TGE aside from a few songs. They just ended up making what was already there (which absolutely did not need the solos to be good), that much better.
     
  13. Dead Winter

    Dead Winter STAHP

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    Yes, because Encyclopedia Metallum is the be all, end all of music reviews. Let's go ahead and discount major publications' reviews of the album at the time such as Guitar World, Revolver, Metal Maniacs, etc. in favor of a half-ass webpage whose reviewers are fans, many of whom don't even know what the fuck they're talking about. Case in point:

    But there's many instances where they definitely don't rule. The vocals don't rule, that's for sure. I'd love to hear this band with a less operatic singer. Dare I say Hetfield would sound great with this band? That's not to say that Warren Dale is terrible...


    :tickled: What a fucking retard haha. Yes, that's exactly what NM needs: James Hetfield. Give me a fucking break.

    If you want fan reactions, you could, you know, just search this very forum because, well, IT'S THE NEVERMORE FORUM.

    You don't have to know a lot about playing music to enjoy music, but it will give you perspective. It's not about being right or wrong, just a matter of taste. Sometimes it ruins it, sometimes it makes it better. That said, I dislike shredding because it's just a mechanical feat. Maybe you like it because you like the sound of it, but to me it just sounds like someone overcompensating for writing shitty riffs. There's a direct correlation between crappy riffs with finger olympics and better riffs with simpler solos. Now on to the riffs:

    I dislike many of the riffs on TGE, sorry. Aside from a few songs, I find them overly complicated and muddy. Jeff uses a lot of polyrhythms in his rhythm playing but I think his taste is lacking. It sounds complicated simply for the sake of being complicated. You can hear the progression from album to album starting with DNB, which had amazing riffs and dynamics, all the way to TGE which, while a good album, kinda lost its way due to showing off how complex it could be. Sentient 6 and TGE are the standout tracks on that album, imo. When it came out it was new and exciting and everyone was fawning all over it, as they should have, because it was a great album. I just don't think it holds up as well as EoR and before.
     
  14. Dead Winter

    Dead Winter STAHP

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    That's one song out of the entire album that shreds like that because they wrote it specifically to be an instrumental neoclassical piece. But the thing is, it's still a bluesy solo at heart, even with the sweeps. What's more, that's my least favorite track on the album because it sounds like neoclassical bullshit and it doesn't fit.

    And no, I don't like TOC at all. As I said before, Jeff Loomis took the Malmsteen path and decided to focus on finger olympics instead of songwriting, and now his songwriting suffers because of it. TOC is a prime example of too little, too late.

    Yes, we loved NM initially for the riffage; what was the example you gave? No More Will? What album is that on? Dreaming Neon Black. I'll take No More Will over anything on TGE, even the best songs.

    I will say, however, She Comes in Colors has some nice riffing. I remember that was the standout track for me on TOC.
     
  15. lorinc

    lorinc Member

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    Nothing toped DNB so far, we kinda all agreed on that long ago if I remember. Now, I don't agree with you that Loomis got more into the shred path with later albums. It was always there, like the solo of This Sacrament. It's fast, full of diminished/minor scales, and probably draws more from Jason Becker and Marty Friedman than Malmsteen. It's at the core of his playing style and always has been. Remark it's at the core of Tim Calvert's playing (remember those crazy solos on Forbidden albums) also, which is obvious when listening to DNB (remember the first lead on Beyond Within is Tim's).

    Jeez, you want some good old Nevermore shredding? Listen again to Matricide, can't say that's a new one...

    If you only said the part where Jeff's songwriting got more into the polyrhythmic stuff with low tuning and chunk-chunk-core thingy, I would have been a 100% with you. That's the tendency I disliked towards the end of Nevermore. Was it because of the 7 strings? Or just that Jeff got into that? I dunno, but it's clear that if anything changed, it's the riffage which got from old school testament-like to modern meshuggah-like, and I prefer the former. But the solos, nah, didn't changed much.
     
  16. Talking Backwards

    Talking Backwards Senior Citizen

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    Keep on moving the goalposts. And yeah, let's play your game where we only count the most mainstream of mainstream sites. LMFAO. I can almost guarantee for every example you show where all they do is talk about Jeff's soloing, I can find two or three where that's not the focus.

    That's the magic of gross generalizations though. Who needs proof right? And when some proof is supplied, dismiss it because it doesn't suit the definition you currently want to use for your argument.
     
  17. Traxan

    Traxan Member

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    Tbh, that's not his biggest sin in my eyes. Between interviews with him and talking to former Nevermore members I've pieced it together. Jeff started out as a drummer before switching to guitar. He knows just enough to be dangerous. He writes the drum parts in tandem with the guitar parts. Some times its really obvious -- "Narcosynthesis" for example -- other times not so much. But he pretty much dictated the drum parts to Van.

    I don't know any other band like this. Can you imagine Jeff or Kerry trying to tell Dave Lombardo what to play? The closest I can think of is Anthrax, where Charlie writes a lot of the music. Regardless, if Nevermore restarts with Jeff, and Van does not come back due to his wife's health issues, I hope the new drummer pushes back and tells Jeff, in so many words, you don't tell me how to play drums and I won't tell you how to play guitar.
     
  18. Pitiless Wanderer

    Pitiless Wanderer Active Member

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    Unless I hear that straight from Van I'm not buying it. Van had such a unique style; no way Jeff told him what to play. Maybe on a few songs to get in sync, but for the overall Nevermore sound? I'd be very surprised if that were true.
     
  19. Dead Winter

    Dead Winter STAHP

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    Are you ever not butthurt that I have a different opinion than you? What does it matter to you that I dislike Loomis in NM? Why do you care that I dislike his playing in the last ten years? No, this is what's happening here: I offended your fanboyism because I have a differing opinion than you, so you're going to nit-pick and point out even the tiniest turn of phrase like a 15-year-old playing Call of Duty and try to disprove it just to get back at me because I offended your fanboy sensibilities. Well, too fucking bad because it's a figure of speech, dude, and if you're so stupid that you didn't immediately get that "every single review" was a figure of speech for "the majority of reviews", then you're dumber than I previously thought.

    "Hey dude, how are you?"

    "Eh, everything is shit today."

    "NUH UH! NOT EVERYTHING IS SHIT! LOOK! I'M NOT SHIT, YOU'RE NOT SHIT! THAT CAR OVER THERE ISN'T SHIT! YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!"

    ^^ That's you, every single time.

    Do you really believe that people weren't blown away by Loomis' solos in TGE? It wasn't a generalization, that's just how it was. That album was all about the solos and everyone was talking about it, and for you to nitpick and say, "Well, not every single review ever written about TGE mentioned exactly what you said" and then post Encyclopedia Metallum is so fucking retarded and childish that I can't even believe I'm responding to it. This is the problem with you, you cannot extrapolate one single iota in the English language; it's something you're completely incapable of doing. Go listen to your shitty power metal and fuck off already.

    Edit: Ok, the fuck off was a bit harsh but stop trying to be fact-check.org every time I post something that doesn't warrant it. I'm not going to proofread my post a thousand times because you want to simply throw something in my face that doesn't mean anything whatsoever just because you love contradicting me. It's a half-empty forum of a once-great, little-known band that is now defunct. Finding out if every single fan review mentioned Loomis' playing simply because I said "every single review of TGE from fan and journalist alike was about Jeff's soloing" just isn't that important. While it may not be literal, it's still very accurate. You're being petty. Stop it.

    EVERY SINGLE GUITARIST at the time who I played with and who I knew liked thrash metal, even if they weren't fans of NM, even if we played in different bands, even if we met just once at a gig somewhere in bum-fucked Egypt, were talking about TGE. Every time someone brought it up, people would either love the album or dislike the album but everyone agreed that Loomis' playing was monstrous on that album and it was like an hour of mind-boggling solos. Later, it just became too much for me and others and we moved on. People, myself included, listened to that album too much and it became more than what it was. Now with perspective we can say that it's not all that it was cracked up to be, and a lot of that is down to finger olympics over songwriting.
     
  20. Dead Winter

    Dead Winter STAHP

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    I wouldn't be surprised at all. Van's playing is literally like a backing track to a guitarist learning how to shred: it's bland, monotonous, and devoid of any imagination. It's fast, but it's there to solo over, that's it. Whether or not that's his fault remains to be seen, because Loomis may very well have pushed him to just hold the rhythm down while he does all the hard stuff and their relationship just bloomed from that. Once you get accustomed to working in a certain environment, when it works you don't wanna change it.

    I mean, the double kickdrum is everywhere; it's overused, usually mid-paced, and boring. I don't think Van is a bad drummer, just that he seems to limit himself. Whether that's out of habit or choice, I dunno.
     

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