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Discussion in 'Kayo Dot' started by delamarche, Sep 4, 2013.
Hello everyone, so glad to see this thread is still active. I'm willing to give my contribute for solving the puzzle. Can somebody recap where we're at and what is still to solve? Thank you!
I think the sigils are the keys to the songs.
Another interesting observation, the color of the page upon which each Sephira name is written matches the corresponding color on the tree of Life. (i.e. Binah is black, etc) not important I don't think, just a cool detail.
Any how, this had to have been decipherable without the secret song initially. Someone who knows what sigils are would likely know about magic squares already. The names of the Sephira would give away which planetary square to use. I think the sigils somehow each spell out the name of a song. The top line of Hebrew in each interlude page then would be the line numbers of the corresponding song.
This is technically just a guess still but it seems pretty logical to me. I think the kicker may be that we are misunderstanding the Greek names in the secret song or they just aren't in the same order as their corresponding Sephira in the next verse of the secret song.
So I think the key is figure out what the freaking sigils are spelling out.
Usually when creating a sigil, the words are written down, then vowels and double consonants are removed.
So for instance: sleep is a curse would become slpcr then that would be used to make the sigil. Hopefully this is helpful.
Side note, planning on seeing Kayo Dot next month in Philly. Can't wait!!
Worth adding this here (From Toby's Reddit AMA) : https://www.reddit.com/r/progmetal/...oby/e6eahmi?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x
I'll note that I think what I'm getting at is there are 2 goals in solving this puzzle, in a way.
#1. Just solving it and getting the original intended answer and feeling cool about having the secret knowledge of eternity and also being the dick(s) that ruined the mystery for everyone else.
#2. Actually determining the complete method to solving it without the secret song.
It's my hypothesis that the sigils simply tell us which songs we should look at. And if that's the case, and we've read into the Secret Song lyrics correctly, we don't really need the sigils at all. Toby's response to the AMA question seems to confirm that the only thing Yayo had wrong was his interpretation of the line numbers. Toby also indicated they probably goofed some of those up anyway when they made the puzzle so we can't take those line numbers as absolutely infallible.
I'm personally very interested to actually uncover the use and correct application of the sigils and I think they were probably the most difficult part of the original puzzle which is why motw made the lyrics to the Secret Song (which btw is SUCH a good song) to sort of reduce the overall level of difficulty. I have little hope of ever solving this aspect of the puzzle as the more I've researched about the topic the more I realize how incredibly difficult it would be to reverse-engineer a sigil.
I think the solution to this puzzle is at the tip of anyone's fingers who takes a moment to simply play around with what's already been done.
Also hot damn, Blasphemy is a great album. Anyone else checked it out?! It's so good!
I apologize for using this as my journal of thoughts.
In an attempt to reinforce my argument that the sigils are simply pointing us to the songs, note that the number of inflection points of each matches perfectly to the number of letters in each respective word given in the Secret Song. ALSO there are some inflection points that seem to repeat and those repeat points seem to line up perfectly with repeat letters in the Greek words.
Oraios -> Binah -> 6 points.Repeats: 1st and 5th ("O")
Topio -> Geburah -> 5 points. Repeats: 2nd and last. ("O")
Petra -> Hod -> 5 points. Repeats: none.
Ypnos -> Yesod -> 5 points. Repeats: none.
The goal of my argument is to convince anyone attempting to solve to ignore the sigils at this point. The Greek words should suffice in indicating which songs to use HOWEVER...
I'm finding it almost impossible to make any sense out of the indicated lines of Sleep Is a Curse. I'm not entirely sure if we're correct about all the songs. Though Toby never seemed to indicate we were. He seemed to indicate that the line numbers were wrong.
Also the character indicating 400 (Tau) in Yod is unmistakable. But that one poses a major problem. Maybe they were indicating something different there?
I don't freakin know. I promise I'm not spending a ton of time on this. Seriously, I'm not.
I don't know if this a good idea what I gonna write (I think obvious but I will write this). So the secret message has ALWAYS a first word from these four tracks (They Aren't All Beautiful, Geography, Stones of the October Sobbing and Sleep Is a Curse).
So I guess that we should change some words which make this secret message weird with some first words of the lines from these tracks. I know, its a stupid idea.
Stuff related to the secret message lines:
First line - Words from They Aren't All Beautiful
Second line - Words from Geography
Third line - Words from Stones of October Sobing
Fourth - Words from Sleep Is a Curse
Even that I think this is stupid, it might help in my opinion.
So here's my result:
Kinda makes sense now, but still something is off imo
All this time I thought this motW secret was just about the elusive story told within the lyrics of Bath/LYBM, but this forum has me thinking otherwise. I'm a little let down it has come down to just a message strewn together from words within the song lyrics, but seeing you guys attempt to solve it and have Toby tell you that you got really close is pretty neat.
I've attempted it myself and didn't get much further.
Binah/They aren't all beautiful = "See Creation Breathe in You"
Geburah/Geography = "Speak Voiceless Sleep I"
Hod/Stones of October Sobbing = "The ? Clear Thoughts" (the number 400 throws me off too)
Yesod/Sleep Is a Curse = "So Great The The Life"
I'm still not sure how you guys deciphered it with use of words I didn't include, such as "Men" from line 22 in Stones or "Humbled" in lines 10 and 21 from Sleep is a Curse. Can you give me reasoning behind that?
Other tidbits I could add that hasn't been mentioned yet: "Amelia" is italicized like the other planet names in Birth Pains of Astral Projection. I found out Amelia may refer to an asteroid or a "minor planet" called Amelia 986 found in the outer regions of the asteroid belt.
Also the wiki on the Hebrew numerals claims that both 15 and 16 should not be written as they are in the motW album art. Apparently 9+6/9+7 is more appropriate, due to the fact that writing them out as 10+5/10+6 are alternate forms for the name of God. ...Unless MotW intended for that.
Just trying to bring life back to this mystery now that I'm finally curious about it!
I've been wrestling with this one again too, so... let me get this right, just trying to organise my own thoughts more than anything:
1. birth pains of astral projection was the original 'decoder' song with it's cluuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhs but i guess nobody got it so they made the secret song to spell it out some more.
2. byron used the number charts of the four planets to create the sigils for each of the interludes. these sigils in turn were somehow supposed to point to the four songs you were supposed to use to look up the lines in the lyrics (i still don't quite how this part works and feel this may well be the piece of the puzzle that's missing.)
3. the secret song reveals the greek names for these songs, which gives a seemingly easier route to They Aren't All Beautiful, Geography, Stones of October's Sobbing and Sleep Is A Curse via translations of the greek(?)
4. if these are indeed the correct songs, then many of the numbers seem to work and you can get stuff like 'See creation breathe in you' which kinda makes sense and then others which don't seem to work at all and wild numbers like the 400 and 'the the' repeats. so either a) we're reading the numbers wrong as toby hinted b) the numbers are screwed up (Byron did hint at potentially having got it wrong) or c) there is some extra modifier that changes the way you apply the numbers to the lines of the lyrics that we're missing.
5. just an aside but i love how the line numbering is screwed up on They Aren't All Beautiful just to make it even harder!
With a bit of creative arithmetic and slight reordering I came up with:
or I guess line 3 would be 'the shivering clear thoughts'
Neat. "Shivering Tombs" sounds cool, but in order to get that I'm assuming you took the 42 and read it as a 4 and a 20 separately? What do you make of the 400 symbol in that line of Hebrew numbers though?
Also Is this use of the word "Humbled" in line 4 only coming from something Byron referred to in an interview one time regarding this final line? (I recall reading someone mentioning that above somewhere). Or is the use of the word "Humbled" coming from another method at reading these numbers?
Also maybe rearranging the words in each line may be of use for a coherent sentence. Though it deviates from what vague instructions we have available.
Breathe, See Creation in you
In Voiceless Sleep I speak
The Clear Thoughts Shivering
So great The Humbled Life
I'm really thinking Jason Byron just screwed these numbers up in the first place though! lol
yeah exactly, which seems to go against them intentionally putting the numbers together so just total guesswork really. I don't really think that's right. also, i read it as 24 which i'm not sure if is intentional or not but no songs have 42 lines and several have 24 so seems logical. i asked a hebrew speaker to give me their read of the numbers and they said 24 also.
this one is the biggest problem. It's the only instance of it so definitely seems intentional. Read backwards you could see it as 004 which is how I got to shivering, but if you read that one backwards then why not any of the other double digit numbers? None of them would work. Again, a bum steer I think.
The other big problem is the double 'the' in the final line. It's really just more guesswork that one of these numbers may be wrong and humbled seeming a logical choice. It would mean the number should be 21 instead of 16, so it'd be plus 5. Another thought as somebody mentioned is that 15 and 16 are expressed incorrectly. In hebrew they're expressed as 9+6 and 9+7 to avoid accidentally writing the four letter name of god. Could 15 meant to be read as 'God' in this instance? But then why not 16 in the other instances?
For now, I'm going to try to avoid any notion that the numbers are wrong or to try and re-order the words because that seems too defeatist! I've read some interesting stuff about Sword Quest which I know Byron said this puzzle was a tribute to. I need to formulate my thoughts on it though and I'll report back!
And I'm still plagued by the idea that we've skipped a step or missed some modifier with the planetary squares. Maybe we should petition Byron to solve the riddle again just so he can confirm it actually works
hey isotropy. can you explain how you did this? I follow everything except how the sigils were mapped out using the magic squares. I understand the process in theory, but did you do this?
I honestly don't remember at this point and haven't the energy nor willpower to try it again. I remember trying it a second time and being unable to come to the same conclusion. Maybe I fluked it somehow.
Unfortunately I've lost interest in the puzzle as I'm convinced it is a matter of mistakes on Byron/Toby's part (which they both seem to admit are likely). Byron seemed more confident that the puzzle itself was as they meant it to be, but also admits he no longer has any clue how to solve it or what the solution is (see podcast interviews below). Byron definitely seems like an expert in the occult but maybe in his 20's he wasn't quite as skilled or perhaps there are just some typos.
I am totally fine with this. I think, personally, it's just cool that there's this unsolved puzzle. I think it kind of adds to the mystique of the band. I'm definitely glad that Toby and Byron still collaborate on Kayo Dot albums. The stories behind the albums and songs are really interesting and compelling and then coupled with Toby's masterfully unique compositions they become even more powerful and evocative. I think motW was just the tip of the iceberg of what these 2 are capable of together.
Byron interview with Greg: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/ret-con-recordings/the-color-of-air/e/35520404
Toby interview with Greg: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/ret-con-recordings/the-color-of-air/e/35453708
Please go check out Greg's podcast regardless of this puzzle. It's a great podcast and he has so many great interviews (Colin Marston, Chuck Stern, Ron Varod to name a few).
also if you're still interested in the puzzle, in case you missed it, I posted a link to my google drive with digital scans of the entire 2 CD books in a post above.
thanks man, yeah i've been through it all and i'm just trying to understand all facets of it. the way that byron drew the sigils is the only bit still eluding me.
basically i'm a word or two away from solving it. i have three out of the four lines confirmed and the last one it seems like neither toby nor byron can actually remember the correct line. fuck! it's a matter of one (maybe two words) to confirm at this point.
but what i know for sure is that a few of the numbers are wrong and that YaYo basically solved it way back when.
here you go, guys. my proposed solution to the puzzle, which I certainly could not have done without much of the excellent work in this thread. hope you enjoy.
This is fantastic, good job!