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Brain gives us illusion of free will

Discussion in 'The Philosopher' started by Norsemaiden, Jul 4, 2008.

  1. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    But does one need to seperate themselves from the entire world or simply be able to see it ?
     
  2. Einherjar86

    Einherjar86 Active Member

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    Good point, razor. :cool:

    I suppose separation would entail a complete emotional separation from the decision-making process. A large argument could pertain to whether nor not we should separate ourselves from emotions when making certain decisions (as I know we've discussed before). Some would argue that emotions cloud our judgment. Others might say that emotions provide a kind of moral guiding system. I personally believe the choice is for an individual to decide.

    I also believe that it is nearly impossible to separate oneself entirely from emotional response. It just comes so naturally and involuntarily. I believe that we need to be aware of our emotions and where they come from. For example, we need to be able to interpret our emotions and deduce whether or not they're being manipulated. So, I suppose I would agree with you that simply "seeing" the world would be enough. Actually, I believe that that would be an even better option, due to the fact that complete separation is essentially impossible. We just need to be able to see everything that influences us and be able to remove those influences if we feel they're impeding upon our better judgment.

    Still, even simply recognizing everything is incredibly difficult.
     
  3. judas69

    judas69 god is in the radio

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    Ideas can be "fully embraced" no matter what side of the argument you're on.
    "Freely" and "choose" are words you've included, not me.

    I was not making a case for free will in the way you've interpreted it.

    In my response, I was trying to free the Self from how we define it symbolically, as a name to a thing we treat as detached and isolated, which is immediately embraced in argument because we get lost in the exchange of the label of Self itself, even though intuitively the idea of Self as individual is never cleanly distinguished.

    So, instead of completely destroying the notion of Self by reduction, expanding it would make this dispute pointless because as I said, it makes little sense to say we did not choose this, when we are this.

    It would be wrong then, to claim that you are just your brain while neglecting every other function responsible for its development, sustenance and sensory input. Every facet of every system necessarily has direct or indirect, subtle or profound implications to every other part and so, it is impossible to divide any system without losing some quality in the process.

    In the same way, is equally wrong to claim your body, your Self, is yours and yours alone as something so easily separated from the rest of the Cosmos that made you.
     
  4. Blowtus

    Blowtus Member

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    While I think I agree with Judas69, I also think 'free will' can never reference something we view as a 'factual occurrence', and is just a language tool that is vaguely useful for a specific viewpoint of the world. In day to day existence it is much more straightforward to categorise myself as those elements of my experience I feel relatively direct and continual control over and information from. (ie, my body) The feeling of deciding what these most pertinent elements of my experience do, can usefully (assuming some sort of arbitrary desire to categorise / socialise / improve) be referred to as 'free will'.
     
  5. Xarthaz

    Xarthaz Member

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    Your argument is badly worded, Norsemaiden.

    Brain giving US illusion of free will..

    what is US then if not the brain? There cannot be any "quarrel" or backlashing between the two parts because they are the same.

    People need to realise that the control center known as brain is a whole and the conscious part of it is just a tiny fraction of a mechanism far too complex for current science to understand. And because its too complex to understand, there is no point in argumenting over it other than the trivial fiction experience involved.

    Also, since there is no real definition to the term consciousness(http://network.nature.com/forums/bpcc/1585 and wikipedia), creating an argument involving it is unethical in the field of debating, unless you give it a concrete definition yourself.
     
  6. Richard Mongler

    Richard Mongler The dream is dead.

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    If free will is an illusion then it would be safe to say that the entirety of the human experience is irrelevant and that the choices we make shouldn't really matter because we have no control over them.

    I don't know if we have free will. I believe that we are capable to an extent to determine the outcome of our lives. We have to make choices, but the belief in free will would mean that I am able to determine and overcome my predispositions of choice and thought. I don't believe in free will entirely. I think free will is just a system of belief to function and live by. Kind of like Atheism, and Theism. It just helps people sleep at night and function properly to think we have it figured out. In reality, it's all just what we choose to believe.
     
  7. Blowtus

    Blowtus Member

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    What makes human experience relevant if we *do* have 'free will' then?
     
  8. Richard Mongler

    Richard Mongler The dream is dead.

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    It would just mean that there is some reason for our existence. In my opinion.
     
  9. Blowtus

    Blowtus Member

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    What reason would that be?

    Would the knowledge that you were some pawn in a hyperdimensional entities chess game provide your existence with reason and meaning? Personally I don't find the knowledge of what others intend for me at all reassuring or meaning-giving - whether or not some divine entity has a purpose for me is irrelevant to any decision on 'meaning' I make for my existence.
     
  10. Richard Mongler

    Richard Mongler The dream is dead.

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    I can't pin point the reason.

    All I'm saying is that if we have no free will, and that if life is just a myriad selection of choices, then how can we really say that we have a choice if the choices we make are predisposed ten seconds before we make the choice? It would be autonomous and would reduce the human experience to machine like behavior. I personally, do not feel like a machine. I do not feel like I am completely out of control. I feel that I do have some responsibility for my actions, and what I do. But, if I really don't, and I am just giving myself the illusion that I have choice, then it works and then illusion becomes reality in that sense.
     
  11. Norsemaiden

    Norsemaiden barbarian

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    http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/35391/title/Do_subatomic_particles_have_free_will?


    I am on the side of believing in believing in determinism after reading this.
     
  12. Norsemaiden

    Norsemaiden barbarian

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    Just to add to my comment above: a perfect illusion of free will would be indistinguishable from actual free will, so real or an illusion it is still experienced by us as free will and there's no reason to fight that experience - just go with it.
     

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