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Discussion in 'General Metal Discussion' started by Zhou Tai 04, Apr 27, 2005.
I concur... except his=her
And no, Christianity is NOT against death or black metal; only certain Christians (PEOPLE) are. For instance, my parents think that metal is evil and they even tried to get my pastor to tell me that it was evil and that I should throw all my cds away. Well guess what? He said it's only a matter of musical taste and that it's up to me to decide what kind of music I should listen to. But even after that, my parents didn't listen to him and they still to this day think that metal is evil. What's really pathetic is that some of you guys here are even worse than my parents.
And no, I did not ignore the question. That is why I posted links to song lyrics. Read them. And that is also why I am willing to send people some songs through AIM or MSN messenger so they can actually hear the music for themselves.
Well, listening to music and creating music are two different things. Listen to what you enjoy, yes. Also, create what you enjoy as well, but when the result is made by two or more totally different elements I doubt that the outcome will be good.
Yeah, I checked some of them right now. I will download 1-2 of them through DC++.
A few interesting things:
Ted Kirkpatric, the drummer for Tourniquet, played for Slayer a few times on tour early on in their career.
Hellhammer did the studio drumming for Antestor on the cd ep Det Tapte Liv and the full-length cd The Forsaken (which were released in 2004).
Ephel Duath, The Dillinger Escape Plan, Textures, Kekal, and many avante garde bands do this very well.
Two contradictory elements don't splice together effectively. Period.
You keep avoiding all the relevant points, instead just throwing around your "there are bands who play metal and call themselves Christian" point as if it answers everything, which, as has been explained, it does not.
I don't believe I have avoided one single point. If anyone has been avoiding things in this discussion, it is you.
Fuck Christianity, fuck Romanticism/national socialism/traditionalism, fuck ideologists who attempt to hijack every single artform, fuck black metal fanboyism, and fuck this forum. I'm done.
stop the hate
Fuck the world!
Listen to Hansen!
Well then let me answer Fourka's question: they are not two opposing or totally different elements. Christianity is not all about love. God is not purely love either. There is wrath, "holy" anger, judgement, the apocalypse, and all kinds of other human emotions that Christian lyricists can focus on as well. Just because it gets the label "Christian ---" doesn't make it limited to only what is strictly discussed in the Bible. There's also the elements of wisdom, knowledge and philosophy that coincide with some of Christian theology.
Metal does not have to be evil. Black metal doesn't either, and I would've thought Emperor's latter day stuff, as well as Immortal's have proven that. I mean, even Summoning (picked for GoD's amusement, lol) don't have that dark subject matter. They have "dark" imagery, but it is portrayed as something pure and beautiful by the context of the music. Even the Bible says God dwells in darkness. It's not spiritual darkness, but it makes the point that Christianity and God are not restricted by our own standards or those of the opposition. Case closed.
Please note that this was never my argument anyway, my argument was that black metal was defined through its own development as an expression against Christianity (direct or otherwise).
In a broader sense, it could be said that metal was defined by its move away from the populism of a Christian society, and that whilst a lot of the more primitive bands retain some Christianity, metal as an evolutionary genre was always moving towards stripping away Christianity entirely.
Well it does depend on how you define black metal, but how do we really know it's roots were in Satanic or anti-Christian messages? We don't. For all we know, some dude in a garage could've invented the genre and never recorded a thing. It is only identified with these types of lyrics because Venom and Bathory were the first to do it who also recorded and released their material. Bathory later dropped the Satanism though, just as Death dropped the gore lyrics. That should tell us something when founding bands realize their mistakes like that. They obviously don't want to found an entire style that is restrained to one type of message.
Very well-said TaylorC!
Here are some references of darkness in the Bible:
Exodus 20:21 - And the people stood afar off, while Moses drew near to the thick darkness where God was.
Deuteronomy 4:11 - And you came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, while the mountain burned with fire to the heart of heaven, wrapped in darkness, cloud, and gloom.
2 Samuel 22:10, 12 - He bowed the heavens, and came down; thick darkness was under his feet. He made darkness around him his canopy, thick clouds, a gathering of water.
1 Kings 8:12 - Then Solomon said, "The LORD has set the sun in the heavens, but has said that he would dwell in thick darkness.
Psalms 97:2 - Clouds and thick darkness are round about him; righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne.
How about you go read the book of Revelation and then get back to us?