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David Irving and Holocaust Denial

Discussion in 'The Philosopher' started by Nile577, Jan 25, 2008.

  1. Silver Incubus

    Silver Incubus Dead Hands Justin

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    I wouldn't necessarily call it a conspiracy theory when out of WWII the Jews did get their own nation on behalf of the British. From some peoples perspectives that looks like a reason to over shoot the numbers in order to get sympathy from the rest of the world. Whether you want to believe it or not there are rich and powerful Zionist out there pulling many stings to progress their Jewish agenda. The oddest thing is that many of the Zionist are atheist as well, just of jewish decent. Because there are so many wild conspiracy theories people tend to group them all together as something for paranoids, when sometimes there is enough evidence to support that something really is going on.
     
  2. Norsemaiden

    Norsemaiden barbarian

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    Good points Silver Incubus.

    "Conspiracy" is a word that people now consider synonymous with "crazy nonsense", yet all it means is a group of people planning something together. It doesn't even have to be particularly secret.

    It looks like those who denounce all "conspiracy theories" out of hand actually postulate that there is a conspiracy of conspiracy theorists who are sneakily trying to suggest that something sneaky is going on.
     
  3. kmik

    kmik Member

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    What exactly is the "good point" here? According to the same logic, we can postulate that all historical events were exaggerated to fit into some agenda... We're not talking minor details here, or complex strings of causes and effects, or about something that happened 1000 years ago - we're talking about... really, never mind. If you honestly think that all Jews across the world work together to make this lie work then you're hopeless.

    The remark about conspiracy theories is simply moronic! Conspiracy theories are not even scientific in the Popperian sense, they can't be disproved because you can always blame it on the Jews. I don't dismiss theories out of hand, I dismiss theories that are laughed at by any serious historian and that miraculously happen to fit into the speaker's agenda (of course, all Holocaust deniers rely on hard facts and never just believe it kinda makes sense cuz the Jews are bad et al, and the ultra-reliable sites on the internet).

    Still - please do specify another historical event exaggerated so greatly. In our age historians dismiss and revise almost everything. There are many respected Jewish historians who present a completely negative image of the state of Israel. Why is the Holocaust so unique? Don't you think, even for a moment, that it's not the Zionists who are biased but YOU?
     
  4. Norsemaiden

    Norsemaiden barbarian

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    You have a habit of jumping to conclusions and ignoring what I have already made clear in posts. "If you honestly think that all Jews across the world work together to make this lie work then you're hopeless." you said. Of course that is not what I think, and I have linked to the websites of Jews who are disgusted with the Holoco$t.

    All conspiracies are not the same. Some are sensible and easy to give evidence for, that makes them more probable than the alternative that they are not occurring.

    There is such a thing as a plot. It is not crazy paranoia to say that sometimes plots actually do exist. The important thing is to present evidence. Evidence abounds that there is a Jewish Lobby in the USA and that they have an agenda. Automatically this fact proves the existence of a "conspiracy" by my definition. They don't always put their cards on the table either. It would be madness to think that a group with an agenda would put their cards on the table for all to see. But we know they have an agenda. Do you want to argue about that?

    I haven't time to write a book here, thus am concentrating on one detail: there is a Jewish Lobby, they are powerful, they manipulate and they have an agenda. Agreed? So how is this not a "conspiracy"?

    David Irving is acknowledged as being one of the world's best qualified historians. His books are not considered laughable and are well respected.

    I don't understand what you are trying to say with your final point. The Holoco$t is unique in that there is a lot of evidence saying that it has been exaggerated ridiculously, and no doubt at all that profit is made from these deliberate exaggerations and social engineering has resulted from the conclusions we are forced to draw. No other historical event is illegal to question - and that is the cause of so much outrage about it.
     
  5. MetalBooger

    MetalBooger Member

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    I kind of like Galloway's take on this holocaust denial thing. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLlSOXfEyO0&feature=related[/ame]
     
  6. Norsemaiden

    Norsemaiden barbarian

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    David Irving has not denied the holoco$t. What he denied was that there was systematic gassing involved and that Hitler masterminded it.

    The point made about Muslims. Firstly, Jews have been "persecuted" because of their activities for millenia - and it is always them and not any other group.

    Yes Muslims should be forced out of Europe and not allowed to make Europe Islamic. The BNP has no problem with Muslims outside of Europe at all. They have their homelands and they should stay there. It is Israel and the US that want to nuke the Muslims in their own homelands!
    The BNP says we should get out of there and that the "war on terror" is bogus.
    So that disproves some of what Galloway was saying. It is worth noting that Galloway himself has frequently been accused of anti semitism (crazy because Arabs are really semites!) by angry Jews because of his support for the Arabs/ Muslims.

    Galloway wishes to continue to support the Palestinians, many of whom incidentally love David Irving and also believe in the truth of the text of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
    http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-references-protocols-full-text-folder.html
    In order to continue in his defense of the Palestinians Galloway made the dishonest, yet pragmatic decision to criticise all White supporters of the Third Reich. He sees this as necessary in order to not be labelled as being an evil anti-Jewish holoco$t denier himself, and thus being made ineffectual.

    Think about the logic. Makes sense doesn't it, and explains the hypocrisy of the support of anti-Jewish Palestinian friends of David Irving.

    Politicians are so duplicitous! But I rather like Galloway.

    http://www.hanggalloway.co.uk/Breaking~20News/page3.html

    If any of you think I have hit the nail on the head please say so.
     
  7. MetalBooger

    MetalBooger Member

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    I think the core theme of his speech is the following:
    Certain fringe movements, i.e. fascism, promote the idea that there are humans and sub-humans, and for this, they legitimize the subjugation these groups.

    Now, we have to make a practical decision on how to deal with these groups, should we accept or refuse their open existence in society? History has shown, that when society denies pluralism(belief that all man is created equal), and plots two groups against one another, conflict and disorder will ensue, in which one group tries to destroy another. The primary example being Nazi Germany, where there were ‘true Germans’ and then a wide array of undesirables. Now we all know what happened in the Holocaust and as Galloway indicates, the intent of the fascist movement was the abolition of the Jewish people. I would extend this to communism, and their belief that there are also two groups, the proletariat and bourgeoisie.

    So can we justify the disorder and mass murder that occurred during the reign of fascism? Of plotting one group against another? Ultimately, of allowing the notion that there are humans and sub-humans?

    A practical society would say no, because there is enough evidence to suggest that allowing these movements to come to fruition only creates chaos and criminal behavior.
    Galloway is arguing that by denying the existence of the Holocaust, you in effect join leagues with those who promote the ideas of the Holocaust, by discrediting a core example that disgraces the idea of extremist movements. Or, by expressing some sort of covert anti-Semitism. Lets abort these disruptive movements in the womb, and punish the few to benefit the whole. This seems perfectly in line with libertarian views of freedom of speech.
     
  8. WeAreTheLastMen

    WeAreTheLastMen Metacom

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    First of all, genocide isn't a verb. You can't be "genocided". lol

    That was afterwards.

    Except, you know, they fact that genocide actually occurred, in that there was diliberate and systematic killing of an ethnic/ religious group.
     
  9. TheAnonymous

    TheAnonymous Member

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    There are evidence that at the last years of the Holocaust the number of the Jewish people that died grew immensely. If they were not systematically gased, I suppose it was just heart attack or cancer then? Or again, a part of the Zionist lie that us evil Jews keep spreading to the world so that you will all give us money?
    Hitler from the start wanted to exterminate the Jews. The entire Nazi ideology is based on seperating people by races and saying which races will live on, which will die out of themselves and which must be killed for the good of the rest, and the Jews were concidered the latter. If there's one thing that can be said about the Nazis more than anything, is that they went very strongly by their ideology.
    You call it a lie, and say that the Jews profit from the holocaust, then do explain how come for 20 years in Israel it wasn't studied in schools and no one even dared discuss it, and that at the beginning people even refused to recieve the payments from Germany? The Jews were scarred very deeply by the Holocaust and wanted to put it behind them.
    That has changed, and now we simply want it to be remembered, to honor the memory of those that died and make sure it won't happen again. People like David Irving or even his supporters are working very very hard so that the holocaust might be repeated in the future.
    And Norsemaiden, about your point that Israelis see themselves as victims and as the most powerful force in the middle east, it's simple. We were always, throughout history, the victims. For thousands of years we were small minorities surrounded by people who hated us and blamed us for their every trouble, and then we came here to a country that is surrounded by our enemies, and with hard work and several great leaders we managed to change that. Finally we have a sovereign country and a powerful army, and no, we are no longer the victim and we will work hard to never be so again. The 6 day war was not a miracle, it was the work of a powerful and well trained army and amazing tacticians, generals and military intelligence.
     
  10. Norsemaiden

    Norsemaiden barbarian

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    It is pointless continuing in this circular argument. I would like to change direction a bit.
    [Btw Shakespeare invented many words that have since been adopted into the English language and I think that the verb "to genocide" sounds a lot more valid as a term than many modern slang words that are entering the dictionary].

    TheAnonymous - if I may, I would like to ask you some questions. Firstly, I would like to ask what is it that Israel as a nation actually wants? What would it take for Israel and Jews in general to feel safe, and do you/they have serious ambitions of power beyond that?

    There is an impression that Israel(and Jews in general) considers every nation and every people who are not Jewish or Jew-run to be dangerous and to be enemies. This paranoid and aggressive attitude has in no small part resulted in the repeated "persecution" (or "prosecution" depending upon which side you look at it) of Jews throughout the ages. If you could simply live and let live then there might be some hope for peace in the world. We stand now on the brink of the Third World War, which is all about Israel's hatred of surrounding Muslim nations.

    Your answer to this question would be very interesting.
     
  11. MetalBooger

    MetalBooger Member

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    In the civilized world, where does this impression exist? Certainly among those who believe in a Jewish conspiracy, but honestly, the leaders of my country and many others do not approach Israel in this fashion. You are attributing the Israelite to a series of accusations "If you could simply live and let live then there might be some hope for peace in the world." Why not be blatant and start your world Jewish conspiracy theory post?
     
  12. Norsemaiden

    Norsemaiden barbarian

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    Yes you are right that leaders of our countries do NOT officially approach the war on terror as if it were all straight-forwardly a war to assist Israeli interests, but the majority of politically aware people are convinced of this and even mainstream media is forced to reflect this point of view to avoid being too obviously biased in Israel's favour. Our leaders are not representative of our people and are surrounded by Jewish advisors like Lord Levi (in the UK).

    In private sometimes establishment representatives let things slip:
    http://www.themodernreligion.com/jihad/french-ambassador.html

    I still want to know what Isreal's ultimate intentions are.
     
  13. MetalBooger

    MetalBooger Member

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    If the subject is that there is a Jewish conspiracy, perhaps there is one, however only in respect that all groups lobby their interests to the global community, and luckily for Israel, their desire for a home land coincides with a western school of though that supports a western base of influence on eastern Mediterranean.

    Israel's intentions most likely extend and end at the maintenance and order of their state, and extreme groups who wish to disrupt that will probably be dealt with in a variety of traditional and militaristic ways.Time will tell whether they they have executed this objective with appropriate foresight.
     
  14. kmik

    kmik Member

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    I had to be more specific than that. I am stressing that Holocaust revisionism is very very different than other types of historical revisionism. That is due to the fact that the Holocaust is a very recent event in historical terms, that it concerned many individuals across Europe, and that research of it contains numbers and not elusive historical causes. Holocaust research cannot be tracked down to one document, to this guy said this, to this photo - it is extremely vast. Thus, disagreements can arouse over particulars (cherrypicking?), but here we have two parties that very grossly contradict each other. How can it be? Many historians have researched the Holocaust; I mostly support the scientific community, and I'd like to think that all historians try to research their subject without prejudice. Now, it's not about meta-narratives or new perspectives (say, great man theory vs marxism, or something) - it's numbers, it's facts, it's evidence. Either the vast majority of historians who are not Holocaust deniers are 1) afraid of the law 2) simply liars 3) use fabricated evidence. I don't know which you claim it is; all seem highly unlikely.

    haven't time to write a book here, thus am concentrating on one detail: there is a Jewish Lobby, they are powerful, they manipulate and they have an agenda. Agreed? So how is this not a "conspiracy"?

    No, there is no "Jewish Lobby". There are Americans who happen to be Jewish and hold position of power. Because there are Jews in America, there are also Jews in power in America. It doesn't mean they have a lobby. Even if they do, and this lobby benefits from the Holocaust (it is true in many respects), it doesn't mean that the Holocaust is a fabrication. Neo Nazis have an agenda behind Holocaust denial to make Nazism valid - it doesn't mean Holocaust denial is NOT true. Facts and agenda are separate. I'm sorry, but I'm simply troubled by your statements. You know, "The Jews" are not a collective entity with common goals. There are Zionist Jews and anti Zionist Jews, religious and irreligious, etc.

    PS - that link for the Holocaust denning Jew is pathetic and I don't think anyone can take it seriously. It's written like a blog..... you know.....

    PS 2 - Using "Holoca$t" doesn't make you smarter.
     
  15. Silver Incubus

    Silver Incubus Dead Hands Justin

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_lobby
     
  16. MetalBooger

    MetalBooger Member

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    Yes there is a Jewish lobby, just as there are lobby groups for every single organization on the face of the planet, from tobacco, to atheists, to the Vatican! They arent always representative of the people they claim to represent, b/c they arent elected and what not, and are considered non-governmental. But lets not conflate that with a Holocaust conspiracy, or a nefarious Jewish plot to rule the world!
     
  17. OldScratch

    OldScratch Member

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    Holocausts notwithstanding, if you or others are sceptical of an "Israel Lobby" (which is overwhelming Jewish of course)that is significant well beyond any standard lobbying group, I would highly recommend a read of the book of that same name,(nearly all of it is available in research paper form online)or officially, "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign policy," by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt. These are no "neo-nazis" by any stretch of the imagination, and they bend over backward to endlessly attempt to denounce any "conspiracy-theories" regarding Jews directly. But their own work betrays this emphatic denial on many levels. In over 350 meticulously researched and noted pages, they cannot adequately explain why this so-called Israel Lobby is so powerful in the first place - only that they DO have great power. While they sensibly concede that many nations Lobby the US(and other)Government(s)from within for favor, the fact that this Israel Lobby is literally feared in Washington like no other, and crossed at risk of one's political career is as unique as it is astonishing!

    In other words, while many Lobbies are present and some powerful, all pale in comparison with Israel, and there is no logical, strategic (politically or logistically speaking)reason why. Thus they make a fantastic case for showing that this Israel Lobby does exist(which many deny out of hand), and that it is indeed very, very influential - but they cannot explain why this Jewish led movement, despite disagreement even between various factions, enjoys this unprecedented power, access, and influence in the first place.

    While "conspiracy" in the traditional sense, may indeed be the wrong characterization for this peculiarly, singularly powerful and influential movement, it is then unclear exactly what this entity is; and more importantly, why it exists and thrives in broad daylight, even as its most powerful architects and engineers, and fanatical supporters basically deny it is even there at all. Which is, ironically enough, the very stuff conspracy theories are made of...
     
  18. Norsemaiden

    Norsemaiden barbarian

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    OldScratch's post above is essential reading to understand events in the world.

    Regarding science and the Holocaust

    http://www.zundelsite.org/english/101/english1018.html

    Incidentally: I support the idea of all Jews going to live in Israel and am thus not opposed to Israel's existence. Zionists have ambitions beyond Israel's existence though. I would like to hear a Jew confirm or deny this on the forum.

    The anti-Zionist Jews wish Jews to remain, as historically they have been, as various communities in foreign countries with much influence in those countries. So for that reason: interference in the affairs of other nations - I object at least as much to them as to Zionists.

    It's all very well to say you can't blame Jews for wanting to be as powerful as possible - but if you are not Jewish why would you resign yourself to being dominated? Why feel evil for objecting? That's a real slave mentality, where one accepts one's place and admirers one's master. :worship:

    Kmik, what is your view on AIPAC?
    http://www.aipac.org/about_AIPAC/default.asp
     
  19. MetalBooger

    MetalBooger Member

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    -how is a racist and violent movement against minorities a legitimate reaction to a skepticism of the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust? "You lied to me, therefore im going to burn your house down?" Is this the response of a reasonable person? At least mainstream faiths have some general moral and rational consistency, this is just, as i stated before, a theory used to spark fringe movements, troubled adolescents who want to lash out. Most likely these neo-nazis have never met a Jew, nor have they ever been hurt by a Jew.


    -But what if you were pursued in a court of law, with the assumption that there will be a rationale outcome, would you be required to pay compensation? The gangster, because he only wishes to exploit based on evil nature, would certainly obtain his money from you, because he doesnt rely on argument, but violence. This is the same for your neo-nazis, who follow an ideology that endorses violence to reach objectives. However in the context of an ordered society, i doubt that as a grandchild of a murderer, you become an accomplice to the murderer, therefore you hold no responsibility
     
  20. hibernal_dream

    hibernal_dream A Mind Forever Voyaging

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    The problem I have is the courts taking historical events on judicial notice. History as a discipline of study says we cannot know for certain that an event occurred, we can only establish that it probably occurred as a matter of probability, and we do this from primary and secondary sources. This means that whether any event occurred is always open to question depending on what sources are out there and it's an ongoing process. We are still uncertain about the basic aspects of ancient Roman history, something that's been revised over and over for hundreds of years. Knowing how biased the media at is at times, I can envisage the dangerous prospect that in the future certain events (murders or even genocides) being reported in the papers and the event being automatically recognized by the court without any proof being necessary. On the other hand, there must be at least some established common facts about the world which we regard as true. Any system of law is inoperable without some degree of judicial notice - for example, that the world exists, that ghosts don't exist and that a person is "killed" when their heart stops beating. But I think any system of law which disallows at least the challenging of established facts, albeit with tight standards for acceptance, is denying the way in which the world is understood and the limits of human knowledge.
     

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