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Do you believe in Extraterrestial Life?

Discussion in 'The Philosopher' started by Iron Chef Sakai, Jan 24, 2007.

  1. Iron Chef Sakai

    Iron Chef Sakai New Metal Member

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    Yes.
    As my preamble...I firmly believe we are not alone in this universe and for that, I also believe that what we commonly think a form of extraterrestial life is something either humanoid or a form of bacteria. Could you imagine the possibilities of what other forms of life out there exists in space? For all we know, there could possibly be alien life forms similarly depicted to those in films such as Pitch Black, Aliens, etc.

    Discuss Your Thoughts and Keep it Clean. I would like to hear your thoughts.
     
  2. speed

    speed Member

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    I'm beginning to think the world is increasingly populated by extraterrestrials, because its the only way I can make sense of many persons I meet, as well as our prevailing form of society and business/political organizations. Their total seperation from reality, history; well, being aliens is the only thing that makes sense. Sort of like that John Carpenter movie They Live. Now all I need is a special pair of sunglasses to tell the real from the fake!
     
  3. Victory Rose

    Victory Rose New Metal Member

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    I do, though only from being told the chances of extra-terrestial life are huge. I enjoy believing in other lifeforms; lying awake in bed thinking over what intelligent lifeforms could be existing right now..it just thrills me to be honest.
     
  4. walkinbazooka

    walkinbazooka Pimpest White Boy You See

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    Absolutely. We haven't even discovered all of the life forms on our own planet.

    We simply don't know enough; we haven't explored very far in space and we don't even know how far it goes (we don't know if the universe is finite![we don't even know if our's is the only universe!]). There is no one who can conclusively say that Earth is the only place in the universe to hold life. Furthermore, I think that it is safe to say that there is life out there. We just haven't found it yet.
     
  5. Arthyron

    Arthyron YHVH's Golem

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    No, at least not life resembling human complexity. There are 100's of reasons why earth was and is ideal for the generation of life (whether or not you believe it was spontaneous or "designed"). The fact of the matter is that life as we understand life can only arise based on certain elements and combinations of elements, and as far as we know, the processes that were the origins of these elements are likely to produce the same elements elsewhere. We've never seen a star form, only stars die. So since the Big Bang, it's not likely that there have been any new formulations of planets or stars. So "life" would have to generate during that time period.

    Now given all these things (especially specifically the elements issue), life can only arise under certain conditions as far as we know, and can only be comprised of certain elements as far as we know. And as I said, earth is very very VERY ideally suited to both generate and support life. For some good texts on the issue check out "The Privileged Planet"
    by Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez and Dr. Jay Richards, as well as "Rare Earth: Why Complex Life Is Uncommon in the Universe" by Dr. Peter Ward and Dr. Donald Brownlee. Earth is in just the right place within our solar system, near the right kind of sun, in the right place in our galaxy, etc etc to sustain life as we're aware life can take place.

    Given the incomprehensibly unlikely odds it would take for life to spontaneously generate on earth (a planet well suited for life), I simply don't see it as occurring to any great extent elsewhere.
     
  6. Seditious

    Seditious GodSlayer

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    exactly---'as far as we know'

    Earth is our only example of life, and given the vastness of space it would be odd to imagine these are the only conditions fit for life simply because they happened to be suitable for a kind of life to come about here. These conditions themselves in the vastness of space have surely occured more than once, and all the other certain conditions under which life can exist probably have or will too... even if it's merely because God is getting bored :lol:

    From ice, to solid rock, to boiling water, life can exist in all sorts of places on earth. Sure Earth right about now is well fit for all the beings which currently exist on it, and when it changes it'll be perfect conditions for whatever evolve to exist in that, it's not like we really need to consider how perfect things are for the modern human for any life to exist, intelligent life even. and I'm sure one of the other planets in one of the other thousands of galaxies has a climate like at least one area of Earth which in 6 billion years might have seen enough activity to bring about some kind of life.
     
  7. Seditious

    Seditious GodSlayer

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    perhaps on another planet they are baffled that some lifeforms on this planet actually think this planet is conducive to life, because by their standards it isn't at all suitable for life.

    Sure, if we didn't know about lifeforms in cold/hot/rock/air it would be easy to lay on our beaches and think 'if things weren't quite like this life couldn't exist', in total ignorance of life in vastly different conditions, but we aren't ignorant of just how harsh a condition life can exist under (harsh by comparison to the certain standards we currently need). To me trying to dismiss the possibilities of the whole universe as imperfect it's as foolish and realising we can't live underwater and concluding that nothing can, since we need such perfect conditions of air and oxygen for our life as we know it to exist. A fish swims up and you suddenly realise what isn't habitable to you is habitable to life itself, and equally there was or is probably a cosmic fish out there silently refuting the silly generalization of ignorance.


    odds are if it could happen once it could happen twice
     
  8. Thoth-Amon

    Thoth-Amon Hypochondriac

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    No I don't but it certainly isn't impossible. In any case I highly doubt we are going to find lifeforms similar to us.
     
  9. Blowtus

    Blowtus Member

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    This is wrong, we have observed stars form.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_formation


    I think alien life quite likely, given the immense numbers of stars, planets, and general matter out there. If something happens on one planet, it seems more likely it would happen again elsewhere than not.
     
  10. Krigloch the Furious

    Krigloch the Furious Pants full of poo

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    yes, 100% yes.
     
  11. Έρεβος

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    In our galaxy alone there are 200 to 400 billion stars, many of which each have their own system of planets as does our star. That means hundreds of billions of planets, and hundreds of hundreds of billions of other celestial bodies such as moons and the like. The galaxy is also approximately 13.6 billion years old. Our galaxy is one of I believe billions or trillions, and those are only the ones we can observe. The sheer amount of chances for life that mass setting would create are incredible.

    Our planet is also only ideal for the type of life that exists on earth, carbon-based life forms falling into the types of organisms we've encountered on earth. Just because our planet is ideal for "our" type of "life" doesn't mean that other planets aren't ideal for other forms of life, or even, due to the mass quantity of chances likely nearly the exact same form of life as our own. I'd say it is more of "this form of life is ideal for this planet" more than "this planet is ideal for this form of life."

    I believe we've found fossil traces of bacteria existing on mars, just one planet away. That speaks volumes; that bacteria, a base form of life is found on an immediately adjacent celestial body. This means that out of a very small sphere of possible chances we've already found "life" in a very base form, a form that could have eventually evolved into a form of as great complexity as humankind. Now, when you increase that sphere of possibility just 100 times, now encompassing 200 planets of varying positions and environments; wouldn't it seems quite likely that in just those 200 planets, a small fraction of a fraction of our single galaxy, that life of a more complex sort would exist? Quite likely indeed. Maybe not as complex as our own, but very possibly so; and when you increase the scope maybe another 100 times even more like. Still that would only cover a small fraction of our single galaxy.

    There was recently an asteroid that made it to earth's surface discovered by scientists to contain organic matter, organic matter of a type foreign to any found on earth. The implications of this are astounding. Even further, the asteroid was dated to be older than our own solar system. That shows there has been organic life elsewhere far earlier than in this solar system. The general makeup of this organic matter being similar to that on earth also hints that life on earth may have likely originated from outside the solar system by asteroid such as this one introducing organic matter to the planet. This further increases the chances of complex life elsewhere in the galaxy, even supports it (in that the planet this organic matter originated from must have had superb conditions [for this type of life] to be able to create it from simple base elements).


    This view is extremely tunnel sighted. You are assuming that life can only exist as we see it. What is to say it isn't possible for sulfur-based lifeforms to exist? There is no way for us to know what is possible, as we can only ever test with the context of the environment we are in. It is a "View From Nowhere" to make such assertions simply because of data we can see within our small realm of knowledge. The simple fact is that there are nigh-infinite possibilities, and even if the chance is small, that sheer quantity of possibilities makes it exceedingly likely that life does exist.

    Where did you get that we've never witnessed the birth of new stars? I don't remember the term for the "factories" of stars, but there are bodies of gases that we have observed stars being born in often, just as often as we've witnessed supernovas and other deaths of stars.


    Any assertion of odds regarding this subject are also "Views From Nowhere." It makes no sense to make such assertions, and then should be given no merit as they cannot be backed truly honestly. It is like saying that the odds for a marble to land in a specific place after being thrown into the air are incredibly small. Of course the odds are incredibly small for that single possibility! But there are countless other possibilities, unknown possibilities that no assertion can be made of. We simply know the marble is going to land, and no matter where it does land the odds of it landing in that spot are incredibly small. To formulate such odds and apply them in such a ludicrous way is an entirely intellectually dishonest assertion, in the case seemingly for the agenda of blindly supporting creationism.
     
  12. Arthyron

    Arthyron YHVH's Golem

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    It's possible, but we've never encountered life arising out of any other elements. We've never seen a silicon based lifeform or anything like that, and as far as we know it's not possible (that's why I keep saying "as far as we know"). Is it possible? Who knows, but it's not likely either way, given what we know about chemistry.

    As far as "odds" go, all the estimations I've seen (for instance the one conducted by mathematician Frederick Hoyle) have been way past what is normally considered mathemetically impossible or irrelevant due to how high the unlikelihood is (I don't remember the exact number, but I'm sure you can use google if you're interested).

    As far as I can tell that's only star formation theory. To my knowledge we have never actually (verifiably) observed the formation of a star.

    The existence of billions of planets does not increase the chances of life neccesarily, only the existence of planets capable of sustaining life increases the chances. All I'm saying is life, as we understand life, and are aware of how it can possibly form, is not very likely given what we know. Sheer numbers of planets mean nothing.

    However we're not sure where this bacteria came from, and last I heard it wasn't native to Mars, but came from a meteor or comet or something (it's been several years since that discovery, I dont' remember exactly).

    Actually, it severely limits it as far as sheer numbers go. The fact that it was similar to the organisms of earth only goes to show that it's unlikely that there are other types of life (i.e. non-carbon based lifeforms), and as far as carbon based lifeforms go, we know they're ridiculously unlikely to form even under good conditions.

    Didn't say it was impossible, said it was impossible given what we know about chemistry. A sulfur-based lifeform is not neccesarily a possibility. The only data we know of indicates that it is not possible, so it's more likely that there are not sulfur based lifeforms somewhere. Perhaps there is some random process that has successfully created sulfur based lifeforms elsewhere and they're very plentiful, but in our current knowledge this is not possible, so I'm inclined to believe that it's very unlikely that this occurs, rather than that it does.

    We have witnessed many deaths of stars, but to my knowledge there hasn't been a case where we have seen, beyond a doubt, a star forming.

    It says nothing of creationism, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that everything happened completely spontaneously on earth. I'm just saying that it's not likely to occur elsewhere given how many random factors had to perfectly line up for it to occur here, in a place that is well suited for the type of life it produced.
     
  13. OldScratch

    OldScratch Member

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    I figure it is not only possible but probable that some manner of "life" exists in the immeasurably vast space outside our own known world. Curiously enough, however, I cannot seem to bring myself to be even mildly interested in the whole affair. Evidently there is enough here to interest me - or perhaps it's just not my "thing." Either way, I've never been terribly caught up in this outer-space business one way or another. I do find the technology employed in space-travel fascinating...but that's about it.
     
  14. Thoth-Amon

    Thoth-Amon Hypochondriac

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    I don't think anyone here says life occured "spontaneously".
     
  15. Arthyron

    Arthyron YHVH's Golem

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    You know what I mean, without the aid of some sort of rational consciousness beginning or guiding it. It coming out of circumstance, occasion, on its own without any "help."

    Btw, I can see you're a Howard fan. He's one of my three favorite authors. :D Did you get the new Kull: Exile of Atlantis Anthology that just came out?
     
  16. Seditious

    Seditious GodSlayer

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    lol yea seriously, 3 odd billion years is a lot less spontaneous than 'on the fourth day god made eve'
     
  17. infoterror

    infoterror Member

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    Why believe/disbelieve, since we have no data? Just say: It's possible, and would make sense given what I've seen so far.
     
  18. Cythraul

    Cythraul Active Member

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    It is.

    wait, it isn't.

    wait, what are you trying to say here?
     
  19. Arthyron

    Arthyron YHVH's Golem

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    That's pretty much the same thing as "believing." I also believe it is possible, just not likely under the criteria of what we know (i.e. it does not "make sense" to me).

    There's no need to mince words or labor over semantics, but if you're going to sit there and do so, so will I. The word "spontaneously" (as it applies to events or circumstances) has nothing to do with instantaneous occurrences or short amounts of time, it only has to do with causality. Look up the dictionary definition of it if you doubt me:

    spon·ta·ne·ous /spɒnˈteɪniəs/ [spon-tey-nee-uhs]

    1. coming or resulting from a natural impulse or tendency; without effort or premeditation; natural and unconstrained; unplanned: a spontaneous burst of applause.
    2. (of a person) given to acting upon sudden impulses.
    3. (of natural phenomena) arising from internal forces or causes; independent of external agencies; self-acting.
    4. growing naturally or without cultivation, as plants and fruits; indigenous.
    5. produced by natural process.

    *shakes head*
     
  20. Έρεβος

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    Yes, hence god spontaneously out-of-nowhere decided to create the universe. And as he is infinite, it was without effort or premeditation.
     

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