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Elementary school shooting

Discussion in 'Bar' started by bryan_kilco, Dec 14, 2012.

  1. RichS

    RichS none

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    I would love to see you face to face with this same kid as you pissed your pants. Big talk from someone who will probably never be in that situation.
     
  2. JeffTD

    JeffTD Senhor Testiculo

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    He shot up a kindergarten classroom. I think it's safe to say he definitely had a mental disorder. For the record, I think it's safe to say based on your previous posts that you have one, too.

    Increase access to mental health services and awareness of mental health issues. It's a hugely ignored problem in this country.

    I also hope you never have kids, or at the very least that they get lupus and/or die in a fire.
     
  3. DanLights

    DanLights Santa Hat Forever

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    you seem to have TOTALLY missed Marcus's point there.
     
  4. MarcusGHedwig

    MarcusGHedwig Member

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    What does that even have to do with anything? I'm talking about how difficult it would be for a wimpy white kid to score a gun illegally, and as near as I can tell you're countering that by saying I would piss myself if that same kid had a gun to my head? No shit Sherlock, guns giving lethal power to almost anyone is what this whole issue is about, so you pretty much proved my point
     
  5. LeSedna

    LeSedna Mat or Mateo

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    I'm fucking exhausted, flying 11 hours (4 flights) after a 4 hours night, so I'm gonna try to be a bit shorter.

    I see where you are coming to, and to an extend, I understand. The thing your arguments of this fashion don't think to grasp, is that in the long term it can only be beneficial, europe is just as good as an example (since we like to compare USA and EU in these debates). And a few centuries ago, we were certainly on the same level in terms of guns/powder/whatever.

    The thing I don't get is why it sounds normal to say "well if we remove guns, it's gonna make people want them even more". So, the answer would be "ok let's do nothing about it ?"

    I didn't know it was written like this in the constitution but, being myself from THE country of Revolution and Humans Rights, I find it scary that this counts as a pro argument. My country's history also shows a Revolution can be made without everyone being a soldier in essence. When they did the revolt in France, to kick the king out, they didn't have weapons, they found them, used them, whatever. Now I know the example is lame in many aspects, for it's 400 years old and shows nothing accurate enough for an argument, but it also shows it's not necessary. I don't see it being something positive in the balance.


    I'm a bit confused at the beginning. First the Police is a threat to citizen, then citizens need protection from the government. Or are you saying US gun laws is how the government protects you ? (I'm using no sarcasm nor doing any point here, I genuinely didn't get the argument there since read two opposite arguments in the same sentence from my probably biased understanding of it)

    So what you are saying is that people should have guns to protect from the Police now ? I'm a bit confused really. If that's true, then you have a big other problems there. From what I read from you and americans is that SWAT is not really the good example, I think I know what video you are referring to.

    By the way, just to give an empirical example which has little value, but just as a "pause for thoughts", that's one the devise of the french GIGN, which has an objectively record next to clean (good enough for them to teach the other elite teams in their own specific field and be chosen as main instruction resource for the ICAO aka International Civil Aviation Organization) : "Guns last".

    If I wanted to be a dick, I would say "yeah sure, that's why killing 20 kids at school is almost common in the US".

    You missed my point with the nuclear example and over-thought it. I wasn't going for a full analogy, since they are totally different examples, since using one is foreseen as "starting the end of the world". Remove politics from it, just talk numbers, I was just using it as an analogy in terms of number of people killed to make the point more obvious.

    So if militaries and cops have guns, then I should have one ? I don't see the point here. And absolutely true about smuggling weapons inside a country. That doesn't make a point though to me.

    You should come to France, where only the Police, the Gendarmerie (military - based police), the Military, and criminals have guns. Live then for 20 years, and tell me how many times you saw a gun out of its holster.

    I would (genuinely) want statistics about this vs the same in europe before I could comment about it because I have no idea. All I want to say is that in my country at least, just hearing "A woman was killed at home by someone robbing her apartment" is pretty, pretty rare. I, in all honestly, doubt multiplying guns lowers the odds of having a gunfight at home at night.

    I absolutely agree. Starting from the initial condition "someone is entering my house at night", no one will argue about the fact he would prefer having a gun in his hand. I would.

    BUT the thing is that in the US, probably every single night intruder ever has a gun anyway, from the first place. It's not the case here. No matter how people would say "bad people get weapons anyway", it's not "that" easy to get one either.

    Point is that maybe you just create your fear of guns just by letting guns be so numerous in the first place.

    I don't think it's that absurd, and you made it like I said it was something almost mandatory to happen. I don't say every single one goes to fight with his guns. But I'm pretty sure the initial reaction of many americans when someone knocks drunk at his/her door is to get his/her weapon in hands, "just in case". I don't say most of them do, but it just needs your 0.1 (or 0.001 whatever)% to be the one killing someone, and hop, another one on the wikipedia page about guns in the USA (mind you, this one is pretty extensive)

    I'd like you to try that here, without being quickly arrested by someone calling the cops, and trust me they would come in the next 5mn once someone called them. You don't find weapons so easily, I'm sorry. If you're already in the market for buying one so easily, you're not the "sample random guy" you're starting the demonstration with in the first place.

    we're not talking professionals here. A kung fu master can kill you with his fingers if he wants (it's not just hollywood).

    We're talking psychos who have access to an instant and easy way to score, aka "I just shot 27 people at a school and another one is doing the same next year, probably". Not someone practicing for months.

    Again, just to emphasize again the thing, we're talking machinery that is hand-held and that can kill someone in the next second by pressing a detent, several times in a row.

    True if you're talking someone who would touch his gun for the first time. I hardly think anyone who did a mass murder didn't train a little beforehand... or was raised in a country where it's very casual to do so once in a while once daddy buys you yours.

    EDIT : After some reflexion, I don't think it's that true though. Once loaded, I think you're pretty dumb if you don't know how to use the thing to at least unload your first mag. Also, you don't need to be that close (although shooting from a distance is probably unlikely to happen with the excitement and adrenaline) to kill, while with a knife (to take your example) you need to be in close range, increasing way much your changes to be taken down by "a random professor"

    I absolutely agree with all that, with a twist though : if crime raises by 300% in your example, I think it's just a short term effect. I honestly believe in the long term it can only be positive. I see your point in the fact that if there are more gun deaths it's because of high crime rate anyway.

    I'm really really sure it does. I recall one of the last mass murders being inspiring by the Columbine one because it's just so emblematic, said by the killer himself; I can't testify it though, but I didn't invent the argument myself.

    Also I don't know what you have with your amendments. We don't train ourselves into being our government arch enemy even though we, as good frenchies, like to complain about it. I'm okay to get the argument of "but USA is a superpower who likes to control everyone else, just like any superpower in history", since it would make sense, at least.

    Also, I don't know how was exactly made your picture John, but if you made it out of sources of corresponding qualities, then I have hard time believing this doesn't make a point. INDEED you cannot compare countries so easily, different background, etc etc... but come on, it had to be like this ? Could it be just bad luck or is USA so special ? Could the fact it's twice as far in both direction as the furthest one of the other countries, be just bias ? It's not a un-counterable demo in itself, but how predictible was that, doesn't it just show something ?

    [​IMG]

    The worst, is that nothing is gonna change. And there will be another one to add on one of those lists :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_related_to_primary_schools
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_related_to_secondary_schools
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attacks_related_to_post-secondary_schools

    PS : almost skipped a beat, thought I lost that before I hit "submit reply" :D
     
  6. Siriun

    Siriun Member

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    Most of everyone in this entire thread is off topic and it's become a rant about guns.


    Back on topic, I think it's a tragic loss what happened. I tears me up that the young children lost their lives yesterday.
    I can only imagine how devastating it must be for the families.
     
  7. TheWinterSnow

    TheWinterSnow Den Mørke Natt

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    I can agree with you on man levels Lasse, but no one here in this thread has made any extremist pro-gun remarks, hell we have all agreed that reform is needed, but banning altogether is never an option, for many reasons, but the most important one being, the first 10 US amendments are non-negotiable, period. We have been saying as well that there are deeper rooting issues that need to be addressed in out current social platform that needs to be reformed for true change. Still even though a little over half of murders are with guns, a good half of all murders here are from disputes that escalate according to the FBI statistics, most of which are hand on hand assaults that result in death or the use of blunt objects...sometimes cars, and a portion are guns. Getting beat to death by someone's own bare hands in a fight or getting stabbed with a knife is more common for the average person to die from than getting a gun pulled on you.

    Our murder rates are going down, our violent crime is going down as well, pretty steady and consistent I may add. The media is trying to make it seem like crime is going up by focusing more and more on the bad violent things that happen, regardless, our violent crime rates have been cut in half the past 20 years and is still dropping. These mass shootings, however, are a relatively new thing, the breeding of mentally ill people is on the rise.

    Keep in mind as well that criminals in Europe and Germany are not in the same league as the criminals here. I will not that an assumption based on what you wrote that you are implying that it is common for citizens to be out in public armed which is why robbers and burglars have to arm up too. That is just not the case, at least in my state, 99 out of 100 people will not have a CCW on them, which means if you where to randomly try to rob someone you have a 99% chance all they have on them is their bare hands. Also keep in mind that in the US, various laws tightening guns, banning guns, loosening up gun laws have always correlated with increase and decreases of violent crimes respectively, every time stricter laws are imposed, violent crime even without guns goes up and when they are loosened, all violent crime goes down. I think the flaw that the anti gun Europeans are making is that because gun laws are tighter there and our violent crime is much higher, it must be because of guns and then when we say that is our culture to blame, you guys correlate that as we are violent because we are disposed to guns. We have had the right to own all available guns for almost 237 years and never had an issue, where our violent crime only started to rise late last century. You have to look at our violent crime relative to our gun laws to see the true correlation.

    And the only reason guns are talked about is because they have the ability to fire at a higher rate, not based on these deadliness to an individual. If anything, if we were to talking about deadliness and the ability to defend yourself, we should be talking about knives, which are virtually impossible to defend yourself from. If I was confronted arms length from a mugger, I would rather him have a gun than a knife or even his bare hands because is actually really easy for me to disarm a gun and give myself an upper hand because I can't fight for shit with my hands, so a hand to hand fight scares me more than a gun.

    Again, we really need social reform, gun law reform that still doesn't limit law abiding citizens from purchasing unlimited amounts of gun and ammo, but doing a better job to weed out the possible mentally ill wackos that may snap and also doing more about curbing gang related activity and stopping police brutality and unwarranted murders of the people.
     
  8. Siriun

    Siriun Member

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    I'd also like to add It's disgusting how our nation reacts to this with such emotion and tragedy of what happened,
    but yet there's children all across the world younger, and in the same age group getting beaten, raped, mutilated, burned, disfigured, and forced into military or nonmilitary slavery. Kids who are forced to gundown their own family in order to survive, or slaughter whole villages, etc etc.

    My point is that we make a huge stink about something that happens in our soil but god forbid it happens outside. It's like no one gives a fuck anymore. Pretty hypocritical of our country
     
  9. LeSedna

    LeSedna Mat or Mateo

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    I don't see how it's judging someone for "crime" to avoid them have access to a potential source of danger, if they are not as safe as "normal" people. It's not being judgemental on an individual, it's just safe practice.

    My job itself is based on safety, you cannot fly commercially if you have mental disorders. Should we maybe allow it because that's not nice to people who have one ?

    Not commenting on the rest btw
     
  10. JHA

    JHA Member

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    I agree the police can be brutal but what are you gonna do, start shooting them? You're not going to win that battle. Gun owner or not they will get you if they want. Cow boys, cow boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when they come for you...
     
  11. JHA

    JHA Member

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    Nothing to be too proud though as there was two school mass shootings in 2007 and 2008 in Finland. The killers used legal semi-automatic pistol in both cases.
     
  12. TheWinterSnow

    TheWinterSnow Den Mørke Natt

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    This is very true. I wouldn't say all mental disorders though, as someone who suffers from anxiety and mild depression, I shouldn't be barred the ability to own a gun because I do not posses the mentality to ever snap and kill people. I could only do so if I truly felt my life was in danger and even that would be a hard pill to swallow, same with any moderately sane person.

    Though I do agree, why should a mentally disturbed person be able to purchase a gun, if they can't even get a plane ticket due to the fact that they can pose a threat to others on the place? It makes no sense to me. Of course, the mentally disturbed can board a plane in the US, but I do think that since 9/11 having flight marshals on the plane can really help prevent violence and hijacking and protect the general well being of those on the plane.
     
  13. 26

    26 Muzak by request

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    makes sense. that's indeed a more differentiated perspective of the situation here than one is tempted to take in this comparison.
    great post.
     
  14. blue_fAng

    blue_fAng Member

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    I think it's possible for anyone to snap and kill, everyone under different circumstances, with or without guns. But I also think guns are easier tools to kill.
    Guns give power. If it's that easy to get a gun in the USA then a lot of people have access to power easily, and that's a big problem. They should not ban guns but stop manufacturing them. I still love guns in videogames but its a mess in real life.
     
  15. timislegend

    timislegend Member

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    i think it's important to note that the guns used, belonged to the shooter's mother. *who was a respected teacher at sandy hook*

    i don't really know if it's worth anything in terms of conversation... but i do know that the 20 kids who were murdered and the 7 people who were slaughtered should be memorialized everyday on television, in books and in magazines but unfortunately the only name we will remember is the shooters.

    of course, i realize that's the world we live in... until we can all figure out a way to prevent these types of horrific acts, they will happen regardless of laws.

    this happened in china around the same time.

    not as many people died (of course) ...but the point is, it's going to happen whether there are guns or not.
     
  16. MarcusGHedwig

    MarcusGHedwig Member

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    Ah yes, I love that argument - "fuck it, people are gonna kill anyway, so let's throw in the towel and legalize it all", great attitude
     
  17. timislegend

    timislegend Member

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    is that really the only thing you took from my comment? :confused:


    *also, that wasn't even what i said.
     
  18. MarcusGHedwig

    MarcusGHedwig Member

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    It seemed like that was where you were going your statement "the point is, it's going to happen whether there are guns or not," but apologies if I misinterpreted (I've seen a lot of pro-gun people using that argument though)
     
  19. timislegend

    timislegend Member

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    ah, i see... that makes sense.

    i was just saying that the conversation should be more about the prevention of these acts rather than idealizing a world without guns... because eventually we will have to do the same thing with knives, then forks, then spoons... and so on.


    *also... the perpetuity of these discussions are surrounded by a world that completely glorifies weapons as a source of power. which is a whole other topic on it's own.*
     
  20. JeffTD

    JeffTD Senhor Testiculo

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    Not really. How many slayings are there in China with knives per capita compared to the US with guns per capita? We have a systemic problem that manifests itself in these ways because guns are easily accesible and are an easy way to kill people. Anyone could pick up the sharpest knife in their kitchen and take out half a department store at any given moment - as far as I know this has never happened, but just last week we had a shooting at a shopping mall in Oregon.

    Give damaged people relatively easy access to something that allows them to kill easily, en masse, and without much face-to-face time with their victim and they will take that option far more often than a readily available and certainly deadly weapon that requires the kills to be a bit more personal than just pulling a trigger.
     

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