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Gamers Thread

Discussion in 'GMD Social Forum' started by Jimmy... Dead., May 13, 2007.

  1. RedinTheSky

    RedinTheSky Member

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    You definitely know what you are talking about. :kickass:

    I was just going to say that while an underground band can get by on a few thousand dollars of equipment, and easily have ample time to produce material depending on their own ability to create music, an 'underground' videogame developer would need a relatively huge team and budget in order to make graphically competitive games; and regardless of how many good ideas they might come up with, they would be crippled by this lack to compete in the graphics department.
     
  2. CAIRATH

    CAIRATH Astral Disaster

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    Yep, that is exactly the problem. The sheer amount of work that has to go into the creation of assets (models, textures, levels, etc.) nowadays has gone through the roof due to the incredibly rapid pace of technological advancements and the increasing complexity of the assets that comes with it. Seriously, it's insane. Only ten years ago almost every game was still primarily rendered in software and hardware acceleration was still in its infancy (the 3Dfx Voodoo card being the first widely available 3D accelerator). Today, just ten years later there are videocards that when looking purely at raw fillrate (which is simplifying things but I don't know how to otherwise easily compare such completely different architectures) are like 800 times faster than the very first Voodoo card ten years ago.

    And that insanely rapid increase is visible in the complexity of game assets that people have come to expect. Your average player model in a next-gen PC or console game is probably built out of more more polygons than an entire Quake level is. And asset creation is still pretty much entirely a process of manual labor.

    So yes, nowadays in order to make a competitive game you need a team of like 50 people with which it will take you anywhere between 3 and 5 years in order to create something that is ready to be put on the market. To put things in perspective, the original Doom game was created by a team of about 6 people in about a year and a half (with 5 of those only having worked on the project for less than a year because the rest was the time it took to write the engine which was done by one programmer before the rest of the team could start working on it).

    This doesn't just affect the business end of things but also the amateur game development scene. The original Doom games and Quake 1, 2 and Half-Life (based on Q1 engine) were all very popular platforms for amateur game developers to build their own modifications on. And all of those games saw loads and loads of mods being released (most of which obviously not being too great but they all had some really good ones too). Nowadays the sheer dedication and skill it takes for a bunch of amateur developers in their spare time to actually build something that looks even vaguely on par with the game you're modifying is staggering. Which is why you see a lot less mods being released for Doom 3, Half-Life 2, Unreal 2k3, etc. It's gotten to the point where the average person simply doesn't have the technical and artistic skill, let alone the spare time and dedication, to create things of that kind of complexity anymore.

    Basically the industry has raised the bar too much and too quickly, making it nearly impossible for companies or individuals without a lot of money to really compete in it anymore. Which leaves the initiative with the big publishers who do have a lot of money but are only willing to spend it on your videogame on their terms, which means game studios often end up relinquishing a lot of creative control over their games to publishers who use criteria like "will this cost us money?" rather than "will this make a fun game?" in order to decide whether a game design decision gets the go-ahead or not.

    Like I said a few posts ago, what the industry really needs is an equivalent of Miramax Studios (and other independant film studios). Companies with money that are willing to invest it in games that are not sequels of already established franchises, or rehashes of concepts that have been proven to be financially viable in the past. And I think that will probably happen at some point.
     
  3. Hell Awaits Us All

    Hell Awaits Us All New Metal Member

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    ya, there isn't nearly enough innovation/creativity/originality in today's gaming market and there really haven't been that many truly great games out on the next generation consoles.

    but even if you hate GTA for its mainstream appeal, you have to give it credit as it is truly one of the most innovative and original series released in the last 5-10 years. If more games took the risks and attempted to do what GTA has done, the game industry would be in much much better position right now

    hell I can't really even remember the last time a truly great game was released on xbox 360.
     
  4. Mort Divine

    Mort Divine Shrine Maiden of the In-Crowd

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    Dude, you've got to give the consoles a time - none aside from the 360 have been out for a year, and the best games are yet to come. Metroid Prime 3 and SSBB will be among the best for some time imo.

    and for originality just wait, fucking just wait when it comes time for Sadness to be released.

    That is one of the best and most original games anyone will have ever played :)

    I suppose you could make a mild case for Atlus.
     
  5. CAIRATH

    CAIRATH Astral Disaster

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    I don't know if I would say GTA was all that innovative. In many ways the path for what GTA3 did was cleared by games like Carmageddon (or if you want to go further back, Quarantine) which also had free roaming environments with pedestrians that could be run over and things like that (which in the case of Carmageddon actually caused it to be banned or censored in some countries). Obviously the GTA games add a new dimension to that with being able to leave your vehicle and such, but GTA3 is really nothing more than a 3D version of the original GTA.

    To me the most well executed feature in the GTA3 series has been the radio stations. That is the one part of the game that doesn't feel half-assed and is actually very well produced and something original that you haven't really seen in other games yet (though I'm sure it has been or will be copied). The rest of the game is hit and miss to me. I have enjoyed all of the GTA games but I also think there was a huge amount of room for improvement in them and if you look at the progression (or rather the lack thereof) from GTA3 to GTA:SA they didn't really do much with that. The only major things that VC and SA really did was make the maps bigger and add more missions. Essentially they still pretty much look and feel like GTA3.

    Whereas I would have hoped they would have used those sequels to do things like add multiplayer (for the PC atleast), maybe tweak their horrible Renderware engine a bit, fix that stupid car teleportation thing (where cars just disappear very quickly instead of acting like a real persistent city) and probably a number of other things.
     
  6. Hell Awaits Us All

    Hell Awaits Us All New Metal Member

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    yea there are definately some things the game needs to do

    1)tweak the aiming system
    2)make fighting somewhat interesting
    3)make the game harder and give us more stuff to do during the leisure time or when we are done with the game
    4)make the business aspects of the game more interesting and more in depth
    etc...

    I think all of this will be fixed on the next GTA though, they are saying it will be a huge improvement over the rest of the series, but I think you are still downplaying the incredible achievement that was GTA3. Creating a real, live world compared to a top down 2d world is not an easy thing to do.

    In any case, Games like GTA are part of the solution not the problem. The problem is too many games that are useless sequels or just copy another game's formula formula (like all the GTA clones).

    games like god of war, GTA 3, silent hill, etc... are far and few in between.
     
  7. CAIRATH

    CAIRATH Astral Disaster

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    But GTA3 didn't really do that either which is my main problem with it. The world in GTA3 is very fake. Pedestrians and cars do not actually move about the city realistically but are simply teleported into a small radius around you and disappear as soon as they are outside of that radius. Which is why you get strange situations like standing on a sidewalk and looking left and right over and over you'll keep seeing different cars come into your view, then when you look the other way and look back that car will be gone and there may be no car or a completely different one. Driving down a bridge with no possible exit whatsoever, if you see a car on the other lane that you want and you don't turn around quickly enough it will be gone forever and be replaced with totally different cars that you never saw passing. A good place to see just how this works is the crane in the docks in the original GTA3 I believe (maybe it was VC, I don't remember, but I think GTA3). If you climb into that crane and take a sniper rifle and zoom in on the roads and city near the docks you'll see they are entirely deserted. This isn't a draw distance issue. There simply isn't anything there. The entire world only exists in a small radius around where you are.

    It probably seems like a stupid nitpicky thing to complain about to most people but for me it killed a huge amount of the immersion in the game. And this isn't something that was impossible to create either. The game Mafia (made by the Gathering of Developers I mentioned earlier) which came out around the same time as GTA3 did have a fully functional city and both Carmageddon games had something approaching that (no other cars but they had pedestrians) many years before GTA3 came out. And think GTA3 can be excused of a lot of its flaws on account of it being the first one in the series that was 3D. But they didn't fix any of this stuff in the sequels they developed over the 5 years after GTA3 came out.

    Luckily with the new GTA they have dumped the horrible Renderware engine and started from scratch so atleast there is potential for all of this to be much, much better. Hopefully they won't waste that potential.

    Is there any word on whether it will have multiplayer yet actually? GTA multiplayer was a blast and I really missed that feature a lot in the 3D sequels.
     
  8. Hell Awaits Us All

    Hell Awaits Us All New Metal Member

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    I always attributed this to lack of technical ability on the consoles, although apparently you are saying it is not the case

    I agree with you on almost everything you said, but the game is still a blast to play. Hopefully, they will fix this on the next one.
     
  9. Death Aflame

    Death Aflame voice of dissent

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    MP1 was one of the best games of last gen, MP2, on the other hand, was lame. Hopefully the 3rd is more like the first in that qualitative sense. Brawl should also be top notch as well but its online component will be severely hampered unless Nintendo gets their online strategy together.

    From what I have heard of Sadness it sounds decent but I would hardly put that much hype behind a game by an unproven developer.

    Too Human, Mass Effect and BioShock look like some of the best new franchises debuting this year and beyond. While none of them really do anything 'new' per se, they do combine various genres to create a synthesis of styles that generally remain unexplored by most developers.

    Regarding GTA3, everything that was done in it had already been experimented on with DMA's previous game called Body Harvest for the N64. That game was technically astounding for the time and underrated IMO.
     
  10. CAIRATH

    CAIRATH Astral Disaster

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    I am definitely looking forward to Bioshock. I was a huge fan of System Shock 2, to which Bioshock is kind of a 'spiritual successor' (in the sense that it has nothing to do with SS2 at all but is being made by the same people).

    Another game that will be totally unique that I'm looking forward to somewhat is Spore. That game that is going to be almost entirely procedural (meaning almost all of it is generated or semi-generated on the fly). I watched a video of it ages ago and it looked pretty amazing. But at the same time it's got this Black & White hype around it (if anyone remembers that game), which makes me weary. Because Black & White didn't even come close to delivering.
     
  11. CAIRATH

    CAIRATH Astral Disaster

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    Here's the video for Spore by the way. It seriously is like 4 different games in one game. It's amazing how incredibly broad the scope of this game is. But it's also been in development since forever and still no sign of it coming out anytime soon. And while that video does some really cool things that get my Geek Sense tingling, it remains to be seen whether the game will actually be fun (which is what my B&W comment was referring to).

     
    #131 CAIRATH, May 14, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2015
  12. RedinTheSky

    RedinTheSky Member

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    What are your 5 favorite games from each :

    A. 8 bit ( Nintendo, Sega Master System)
    B. 16 bit ( Sega Genesis, Super Nintendo, Turbo Grafx, and cd add ons)
    C. 32\64 bit ( Playstation, Sega Saturn, Nintendo 64, 3do)
    D. 128 bit or Pre - current gen, (Dreamcast, Playstation 2, Xbox, Gamecube)
    E. Current Gen ( Xbox 360, Wii, Playstation 3)
    F. PC games.
     
  13. Death Aflame

    Death Aflame voice of dissent

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    Yeah Spore looks amazing. I heard a rumor that the game may be delayed until 2009. I am hoping this isn't true, but I wouldn't be all that surprised considering the massive scope of the game.
     
  14. Hell Awaits Us All

    Hell Awaits Us All New Metal Member

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    Sega genesis - mortal kombat
    ps1 - resident evil 2
    ps2 - GTA 3
    xbox 360 - nothing particularly great has been released. My most fun I had playing the game was Saint's row

    I haven't had a chance to play much PC games outside of playing them at friend's houses, based on that my favorite would be the half-life series.
     
  15. Astrum

    Astrum Psion

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    I heard Saints Row sucked meaty balls.
     
  16. Death Aflame

    Death Aflame voice of dissent

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    Gears of War >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Saint's Row
     
  17. Hell Awaits Us All

    Hell Awaits Us All New Metal Member

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    it was the best GTA clone that has been released

    xbox 360's game library has sucked ass so far
     
  18. MasterOLightning

    MasterOLightning Optimator

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    I don't know why anyone would buy a 360, unless you just have money to throw away. It's pretty dumb to buy a new console at launch, or even within the first year. There aren't many games within the first year, and 3rd party developers are still learning to make good games for the hardware. It's better to wait a year, when prices have dropped and the library looks a bit better. You can also tell which consoles have the brightest future.
     
  19. Nikki

    Nikki Member

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    I'm still playing A Link to the Past and Link's Awakening:)
     
  20. Death Aflame

    Death Aflame voice of dissent

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    Well for gamers who don't have PC gaming rigs nor the desire to upgrade to one, the 360 makes financial sense if you want to play games like FEAR, Oblivion, Splinter Cell, Prey etc. Plus games like Dead Rising, Gears of War, Crackdown, Viva Pinata and Lost Planet all range from decent to exceptional.
     

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