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Hey Democrates

Discussion in 'Bar' started by Loren Littlejohn, May 5, 2012.

  1. Damian B

    Damian B ¯\(°_o)/¯

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    Also, if you equate being "liberal" (leftist, or progressive) with unexamined, unbridled support for the president you are also wrong.

    I go to a conservative school with a left-leaning Political Science department, but academic political-scientists tend to be realists. They have Ph.D's, and it's their job to research how someone like Obama's policies (I use this term cautiously, as Congress has an equally important role) influence foreign policy, national trends, or anything else. Half of them are so neutral that they won't even evaluate the "rightness" of these policies to begin with - they surely don't support them, it's simply their job to examine them. If, through academic research, they determine a policy is good/bad in some way, they may denounce it or support it, but this is done carefully and usually not in a classroom.

    Political Science, if done appropriately, is about evaluating situations or policies objectively. If the outcome is "liberal," that's because it's been established by thorough research, not unfounded ideology.

    Edit: The same goes for other "liberal" departments: sociology and women's and gender studies, for example. They may have a "liberal" message, but it's been established through research and can be proven.

    For example - take the claim that extra-legal racial discrimination still exists. Many leftists agree, many conservatives don't. Conservatives may acknowledge that some white people still hate black people, but that's not a good enough reason to justify why so many african-americans are still poor. Work harder! Go to school! Just move out of that bad neighborhood!

    So, what can we learn through sociological research? Most sociologists agree that extra-legal racism still oppresses minorities, but why is that the case? Well, in a study conducted in the nineties (I can try and find it for you, if you like), several sociologists did research on workplace discrimination. They trained a group of white people and a group of black people and had them apply for the exact same job. These people had the exact same education, had nearly identical resumes, dressed in the same attire, and had been trained to use the exact same interview methods/mannerisms, etc. Oftentimes, these people would interview consecutively. What did they find?

    They found that businesses were significantly more likely to hire the white person. AND, if they did hire both, which happened occassionaly, almost half of the time the black person would have a lower starting salary. Sometimes it was as ridiculous as $7 an hour for the black person and $10 for the white guy. Many of the black people were put into lower-wage positions, like a janitor, while the white person was hired on as a secretary. They concluded that workplace discrimination still exists, and that every single day it oppresses minorities.

    So, "liberal" outcome, sure. But that outcome is based on objective research, not ideology.
     
  2. Loren Littlejohn

    Loren Littlejohn Lover of all boobage.

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    :lol:

    Ok then maybe the lefties are louder then.

    I can't count the amount of times one of my english, ENGLISH professors went out of his way to go off topic on a Bush rant (I got out with my degree in 08 btw). He was a fucking tool and a half though. haha

    Shoot even my old ass Psych professor that trolled around in a 80k lux car was liberal as FUCK.

    I remember having a teacher in high school (long ass fucking time ago in 01) who, while being more tact about it also had no issue voicing his opinion on his government views. Now I give him a bit of a pass since he is was a history teacher.

    Most seem to have the sense to shut the fuck up about politics thankfully.
     
  3. roy22341

    roy22341 Member

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    1 - he gave everyone health care - The Affordable Care Act was a quick fix. The lack of a public option doesn't give me any warm fuzzies, let me say that. The same people that are in charge of fucking up our entire healthcare system are still running the show - now they're just getting even more taxpayer money than before. The lack of cost-sharing on preventative care is going to long term drive up costs significantly. How many private companies are going to be able to buy their way out of this? Tens of millions will still remain uninsured. If this works as well as the administration seems to think it will, then great, I'm all for it. I really don't think it addressed the major issues affecting health care in this country and we'll be revisiting the exact same problems in another decade.

    2 - he let gay people in the military - Eh, iffy. Gays were allowed in the military before Obama, now they can just serve openly. So I guess I can say credit where credit is due here. In the grand scheme of things is this that big of a deal? I don't think so considering he hasn't even endorsed gay marriage yet.

    3 - he saved the american auto industry - This is one of those examples of hypocrisy that both the left and the right are amazing at. Why aren't the Occupy Wall St. protesters banging their heads against the wall about taxpayer money getting sent to a private corporation that made horrible business decisions and do nothing but ship jobs overseas? At the same time, the right manages to be pissy about this but be perfectly okay with bailing out the Wall St. banks. This is the type of shit that boggles my mind with our political system. Take a step back and ask yourself this, if Bush had done this would you say it would be a reason to remember him as a great president, or would he be simply pandering to lobbyists and private interest groups?

    4 - he ended the war in Iraq. Did he? Or did he follow a timeline that was put in place before he took office? Did Ford or Nixon get any credit for ending the Vietnam war? I highly doubt any history book will show Obama as the great leader who "ended the war in Iraq" without a follow-up of how he's managed to exacerbate the tumultuous climate in Pakistan and other areas of the Middle East. If Obama had any substantive differences with the Bush Doctrine of foreign policy I'd be willing to give him credit, unfortunately both Democrats and Republicans are all about foreign intervention.
     
  4. John_C

    John_C formerly Skeksis268

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    I love how "liberal" can be used as an insult in america :lol:
     
  5. JeffTD

    JeffTD Senhor Testiculo

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    Liberal, secular, left, progressive, activist, etc... all from the only country that doesn't consider a libertarian a leftist-anarchist.
     
  6. Loren Littlejohn

    Loren Littlejohn Lover of all boobage.

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    I wasn't insulting anyone. Merely backing up my experiences with college professors and my pulled from my ass stat on them. :lol:
     
  7. TesticleMilkshake

    TesticleMilkshake pewpewlazrz

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    THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!!!
     
  8. TesticleMilkshake

    TesticleMilkshake pewpewlazrz

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    Not to be an ass, but...

    [​IMG]

    Sorry, found that marco today and I've been dying to use it. :lol:

    But seriously, something like 9 out of 10 teachers on the compulsory level across the US are right-leaning. At the higher level, however, this flips from 1 to 10 being right-leaning.

    Personally, elementary school to high school on the public level is rudimentary tools (reading, math) and indoctrination as a US citizen (I say this because in my modern US history courses, we vaguely touched Korea, Vietnam, or even the Gulf War but understood WWI, WWII, like it was nobodies business.) The idea of indoctrination in compulsory school is almost true for any modern nation, look at the history text book controversies in Japan.

    For myself, college and beyond has been about developing creative solutions and thinking outside of the box (could work well for either an artistic environment or the corporate.) Even if it was a left-leaning school, I learned to think critically, rationalize and question. Personally, I think the US would be ranking much higher on the academic scale if we modeled thinking in our public schools after a college curriculum. Information needs time to set in and be digested for it to make sense.

    To be honest too, I feel as though my higher education has been a nice contrast to everything before that. In fact, I had a professor teach the American Revolution from the perspective of the British. Neither opinion or idea on the other was right n'or wrong, it just gave students a better idea of balance with respect to finding historical truth.
     
  9. egan.

    egan. daylightdies.com

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    Care to add a citation to those number?
     
  10. colonel kurtz

    colonel kurtz Member

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    the term "liberal" isn't just an insult in america anymore...it's the insult

    if this country had its priorities straight, people would take much more offense to being called a christian than being called a liberal...but what are you gonna do?
     
  11. TesticleMilkshake

    TesticleMilkshake pewpewlazrz

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    This was actually a statistic my American History/Government and Economics teacher (super conservative) gave me in high school. He may have been referring solely to Social Studies teachers or educators as a whole. The guy was a dick though.

    This article was performed by the University of Utah (The Political Leanings of College Teachers of Education in Eight Selected Universities and Colleges) shows stats similar to what I gave above, even though its from the 1970s. You have to have a JSTOR account to access it, but it basically says something like 70% or 80% of all college professors would have voted for Kennedy at the time of the 1960 Presidential election. The statistics actually move in a bizarre fashion though (broken up by rank, income bracket and gender) female college professors were more likely to be Republican, and the group that voted most for Kennedy were assistant professors.
    http://www.jstor.org/stable/446923

    This blog post from a scholarly article states that its split 50%, 50% among elementary school teachers.
    http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2009/09/elementary-school-teachers-presidential.html

    I'm really surprised there is no concrete, published research on teachers and political affiliation :err:
     
  12. TesticleMilkshake

    TesticleMilkshake pewpewlazrz

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    #32 TesticleMilkshake, May 6, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2015
  13. egan.

    egan. daylightdies.com

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    I appreciate you going and looking for numbers. Given that the data you found was 40-50 years old I think you see what I'm getting at. I probably wouldn't quote that teacher anymore. :)
     
  14. Genius Gone Insane

    Genius Gone Insane http://www.¯\(°_o)/¯.com

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    You are describing what actually happened, but I'm telling you how the history books will capture it.
     
  15. timislegend

    timislegend Member

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    i will use this again...

     
    #35 timislegend, May 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2015
  16. TesticleMilkshake

    TesticleMilkshake pewpewlazrz

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    Hahaha, not a problem :) There are conservative teachers though, my grandfather being one (taught at Brooklyn Tech during the crack epidemic)

    Growing up in a mostly right-leaning area, a lot of my teachers leaned Republican or conservative. Even if though they couldn't disclose their political affiliations, it was obvious by the way they taught.
     
  17. Genius Gone Insane

    Genius Gone Insane http://www.¯\(°_o)/¯.com

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    I think we should cut Social Security because it is socialist. The conservatives in the 1930s that thought social security was Socialist and anti American were right all along. What a huge mistake that was -- we need to end social security and give the money back.


    </Sarcasm>
     
  18. colonel kurtz

    colonel kurtz Member

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    fuck social security anyways, i'd rather take the money i pay into that and invest into my own retirement in any manner i see fit

    the only reason the program has had any merit is because americans have been too stupid to save money for themselves, and just assume that they'll be taken care of down the road....and SS has done nothing but re-affirm this belief for 3 generations now
     
  19. Glenn Fricker

    Glenn Fricker Very Metal &Very Bad News

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    Please research your facts. Cars are still built in America, and the money has been paid back.

    I can't see how anyone would be against middle class Americans having jobs. Saving the auto industry was a good call.
     
  20. amarshism

    amarshism Member

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    Obama for life!
     

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