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How accurate should a re amp be?

Discussion in 'Backline' started by reneisgod, Mar 15, 2017.

  1. reneisgod

    reneisgod Rene

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    How accurate should a re amp be in comparison to plugging your guitar
    straight into your amp and recording?

    My re amps are always too bright and clicky in comparison, this is extremely frustrating and its been
    an on going issue for years.

    Here is a simple riff back to back demonstrating my issue

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/gkpaw6f9srgjtz9/amp vs reamp 2.wav?dl=0

    The chain is;
    marshall jcm800 2003
    into jet city attenuator
    straight to m audio 2x2
    torpedo wall of sound

    DI chain
    Country DI into m audio 2x2 pre
    out from 2x2 into decapo plamer re amp box
    back into Marshall etc...

    Id really really really appreciate any advice or help, perhaps a re amp isn't supposed to sound
    identical?

    Its worth mentioning i have tried various usb interfaces, leads, DI boxes, reamp box
    but the problem is always the same so is it natural for the re amped DI to be so far off like this?
    there really seems to be no fixing it anyone else experience the same problem?
     
    #1 reneisgod, Mar 15, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
  2. newamerikangospel

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    Sounds like gain staging is different, and my countryman type85 does impart a "click" (your post says country DI, assuming you meant countryman). Any time you deal with electronics, there will be some change in tone. When you throw in something that can effect the actual amplitude, it can change drastically. The 2nd half (I assume your DI) sounds like it is a bit louder when it is hitting the front end of your amp. Are you playing with level and the -10 switch?
     
  3. reneisgod

    reneisgod Rene

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    yeah sorry a countryman type 85, i have other DI boxes and even hi zi inputs but the results are always similar no matter what i try,
    I've tried the -10 switch I've even tried hitting the front of the amp with less gain going in but there's still that overly bright attack
    it almost sounds like a single coil pickup, i don't know if the problem is the actual recorded DI being too bright or something wrong from the interface to re amp to front of amp. I'm so stressed with trying things out and getting nowhere : (
     
  4. reneisgod

    reneisgod Rene

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    yeah sorry a countryman type 85, i have other DI boxes and even hi zi inputs but the results are always similar no matter what i try,
    I've tried the -10 switch I've even tried hitting the front of the amp with less gain going in but there's still that overly bright attack
    it almost sounds like a single coil pickup, i don't know if the problem is the actual recorded DI being too bright or something wrong from the interface to re amp to front of amp. I'm so stressed with trying things out and getting nowhere : ([/QUOTE]
    I also tried taking the re amp box out of the chain and going straight from m audio outs to the front of my amp and tbh it pretty much sounded the same.
     
  5. reneisgod

    reneisgod Rene

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    actually 1 thing came to mind, my decapo plamer has a balanced female xlr in but my m audio has 1/4 out
    so im having to use a 1/4 to xlr cable to connect the 2, as far as im aware 99% of interfaces either have rca or 1/4 outputs so why do all re amp boxes have xlr in? where is the logic in that! lol

    could this be causing issues with ''gain staging'' as you mentioned as im pretty much having to max the volume on the m audio and the re amp box to get the signal close.
     
    #5 reneisgod, Mar 15, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
  6. newamerikangospel

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    Possibly. A balanced cable will have an inverted signal that is the realigned back into phase, phasing noise out. If something is expecting an xlr in, it's expecting two channels, so you are giving it half volume, and it is giving you (half? Double?) impedance on what you have plugged into it unless you have balanced output (your guitar will not).
     
  7. reneisgod

    reneisgod Rene

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    hmm, ive ordered a Balanced Lead XLR Male to Stereo TRS Jack, fingers crossed as im outta ideas after this lol
     
  8. allanqa

    allanqa Member

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    Yes you need a balanced cable, it can improve your tone, but in my experience you need to dial the amp in a different way when you reamp, you will never get the same tone
     
  9. reneisgod

    reneisgod Rene

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    thanks for the reply, i got a balanced cable but yeah the tone is still completely different.
    i think i just have to accept that it will never sound the same which tbh really puts me off the idea of re amping.
     
  10. Trevoire520

    Trevoire520 Member

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    It's pretty easy to test if your reamping chain is fucking your signal up, not giving enough gain etc:

    1: Record a short guitar DI
    2: Reamp the DI, sending it back through the same DI box/preamp gain etc that you recorded the original DI with.
    Now you have the original DI and the re-amped DI for comparison.
    3: Check the RMS level of each to see if the reamp box is putting out the same level as the original DI. Adjust the level on the DI box or on your interface output until it's as close as you can get to the original.
    4: Check the eq curve (a match eq like izotope Ozone works well for this) of each to see if the reamp box is changing the tone at all.

    At this point you know if the reamp chain is giving you the same level and eq curve as the original DI. If it is but you're still not liking the results then it could be your original DI chain that's at fault (not likely with a Countryman DI I suspect)

    If things aren't coming out of the reamp box as they should be then at least you can able to formulate a plan of attack, whether it's using the match eq curve to compensate for the reamp colouration before it's sent out, or using something to adjust the level and hit the amp as hard as the original guitar does, it should be simple to figure out.
     
  11. H-evolve

    H-evolve Member

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    I thought I'd share my experience on reamping, as I have started doing it this year, with no past experience. Plus I'm no profesionnal audio engineer and I'm self-taught. So you should consider this when reading my comments...

    I have a Komplete Audio 6 from NI as an interface and a ProRMP from Radial as a Reamp Box (probably the most affordable you can get on the market).

    When I first started, it was pretty obvious for me that what Trevoire520 has described was the best way to validate my reamping was adequate. I was mostly looking for level matching, not necessarily EQ matching. I've always recorded my DIs at around -6dB in Reaper and obviously, I was lacking 6dB when trying to reamp. I made an easy test of recording my DI at -20dB (lowering my interface input volume) and then reamping it. When reamping I was lacking even more gain...

    So I was kinda screwed cause I was not going to record my DI at 0dB, on the verge of clipping. Plus! The ProRMP has pretty much no output, even with the gain at maximum. Even with a DI close to clipping (-0.2dB), my reamp level was not close to match my original DI level (the output of my guitar pickups).

    What I had to do, thanks for suggestions from this forum, is to crank the "hardware output" using Reaper and try to push the fadder slightly, to bring the DI close to 0dB.

    With this, I was able to match the levels of my guitar pickups, and after making a couple of test, I was not hearing major tone differences. There were, of course, differences, but nothing that made me want to spend time trying to match EQs. The reamp tone was good enough, just not identical to what came out of my guitar. Sure I'd prefer having the exact replication of my pick-ups, but I just think it's not possible. I told myself that in my chain, there are so many items that impact my tone, that adding one more (the Reamp Box) is not really that big of a deal. Reamping is so helpful, at least for me, that I think the benefits exceed whatever disadvantage I could find.
     
    #11 H-evolve, Mar 22, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
  12. allanqa

    allanqa Member

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    I have a very similar set, a countryman type 85 for DI recording and a DACCAPO for reamping, the only difference is the interface.

    I never get the same equal tone, don´t get bother to get the same tone you "play live to the amp", get a GOOD ONE, use your ears
     
  13. reneisgod

    reneisgod Rene

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    Hi yeah i tried all this and the clean DI - Reamp sounded identical which is telling me my original DI or the attack to me DI is way off

    here's a new example;
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/h2l7h1nriyv419a/vs.wav?dl=0

    the thing is i have tried different DI's different interfaces - pres and i even tried different computers and daws
    and the results are always the same as the clip, glassy attack, shrill tone etc

    so really regardless of what i change in the signal path/chain the results don't improve, im at a total loss and feeling very depressed
    over it lol

    Can i send someone a DI and see if they experience the same glassy attack with my DI
    vs 1 of their DI's please?

    DI - in Standard E @ 150 bpm if someone could compare to their own DI really appreciate it!
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/42iwskkir4mt4k7/DI.wav?dl=0

    Im aware that every guitar will sound different but i dont believe the high clicking sound im getting via my DI is natural and should stand out to anyone elses DI + the fact this sound isnt present when i go straight to my amp.
     
    #13 reneisgod, Mar 23, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2017
  14. reneisgod

    reneisgod Rene

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    hey guys, after more failed attempts to create a successful reamp i decided to give active Emg 81s a try
    and guess what? the reamps now sound identical if i were plugging straight into the amp yet whenever i try
    passives the tone is way off, can anyone make sense of this or offer an explanation? I HATE ACTIVES!
    but if its the only solution i have then i may have to stick with them.
     
  15. dr.distortion

    dr.distortion Member

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    That's not the best solution. I'm personally a fan of EMG pickups, but if you're offering a remote reamping you will eventually receice tracks recorded with passive pickups.

    What is the main difference between a passive and active pickups? Last ones have their own onboard preamp. So you can try to use a TubeScreamer or some other overdrive pedal with your passive pickups before your DI box. It would be your outboard preamp, so you can check how does this chain works. But for me it's just a temporary solution.

    Did you recorded your guitars to your DAW before reamping? Try to compare your tone while you plug into your amp directly and through all that chain, activating a monitoring on your MAudio. Also, as for me, I don't like your 2x2 interface, I don't think that a $100 device has a high quality coverters, so it could easily affects on your tone.
     
  16. reneisgod

    reneisgod Rene

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    I tried going into my countryman - reamp box into the amp no cpu/daw and there it was again that horrible high end on the pick attack. I think the problem is the DI or more so DI boxes in general as i tried out 3 different DI boxed and it never sounded the same as going straight into the amp. I don't know the technical explanation but its almost as if a 1 mega ohm DI boxes takes the guitar signal and pushes it to far creating an ice picking attack/glassy? I can't be the only person to ever notice this problem surely everyone else is experiencing this ?

    I also read that the radial DI does 220k input, that makes way more sense to me than using 1 mega ohm. would this solve my issue with the ice picking on the attack? again if so then why are people using DI boxes at 1 mega ohm, why are company's putting out hi-zi 1 mega ohm interfaces? where the logic in that!
     
    #16 reneisgod, Mar 29, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
  17. dr.distortion

    dr.distortion Member

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    Well... A few year ago when I started to offer a reamping service, I tried several different signal chains. I found that when I used as little devices as it possible that worked the best for me. So I used just a TC Electronic 48 Studio Konnekt, which is pretty good audio interface with good AD/DA converters... I recorded a DI signal into it's preamp, then I sent it to an amp and captured it with a mic back to it's preamp. When I tried to use a DI box or reamp box, I didn't hear that a result was better with them. So less devices you use = less them affecting on your tone. And even more, less devices you use = less cables, that's important too. Try to use any stuff only whet that's necessary
     

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