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Is ReCabinet Worth It?

Discussion in 'Backline' started by thefalloftheheretic, Feb 18, 2013.

  1. Kazrog

    Kazrog CEO/CTO, Kazrog, Inc.

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    The Recabinet 3 IR library is designed to be mix-ready (not in the sense of processed, but in the sense of careful placement, capture, signal chain, and IR selection.) Some people don't like that approach, which is one of the reasons why third party IR import will be of great benefit to anyone who doesn't like the "sound" of the Recabinet library.

    As for speaker dynamics - it's admittedly a subtle thing, but it's also totally accurate with the sonic behavior of physical speakers. Anything more obvious/gimmicky would be (and is) inaccurate. One of the reasons why so few developers have attempted to tackle this is because IRs on their own are incredibly close to the real thing. I'm not always the most practical guy, so I decided to study and model speaker dynamics over the course of a year, even though I knew all along that it's a difference that a majority of people may not care about or even be able to perceive. I knew that some people would laugh and make fun of the comparison clips (which has happened a few times), and I don't care. Where you really hear a difference is in the way the guitars glue into the mix, and the overall sense of "3D." IRs can sound really good on their own, but without the dynamics, it's essentially impossible to get them to sit in the mix at the right level relative to the other instruments, even if you're a seasoned mix engineer.

    I'm not trying to tell anyone that they shouldn't be happy with their pre-existing tools or workflow, or that there's only one way to get a good guitar sound. I do, however, feel committed to the cause of accurately emulating analog hardware in the digital domain, even if the pursuit of modeling accuracy beyond what's currently available on the market from other vendors is a difference that matters to very few people.
     
  2. Deathell

    Deathell Member

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    Shane, I'm using an E570 with the X50's power amp into Recabinet 3.1 but I'd like to know more about your signal chain for best results, how do you set your master volume on your E530? There is a -20dB in the back of my E570 preamp (stereo line outs) or should I use the -15dB/-30dB pad on my Countryman Type 10? Does it matter how short the cable have to be from the line out to DI box? I have a crap long 15' guitar cable hooked up at this at the moment. And when using the Savage going into the countryman which what pad do you have engaged on it? I'd probably grow into this route soon once I buy a poweramp for my E570.
     
  3. Kazrog

    Kazrog CEO/CTO, Kazrog, Inc.

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    You shouldn't have to use a DI box with the E570, since it's a preamp with a line output. Just connect the line out to your audio interface. Adjust your master output on the preamp so that you get a decent level without any clipping.

    The Countryman Type 85 doesn't have a pad, I have it set to "speaker" mode, and it's connected in between the amp and the load box with speaker cables. I then take the Countryman's XLR line out to my audio interface.

    Obviously, shorter instrument cable runs are better (especially with tube gear, which has a way of amplifying radio signals audibly - I can pick up dance club hits with my Savage if I'm not careful.)

    :danceboy:
     
  4. The Dane

    The Dane Member

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    Have you tried with a real speaker, removed the paper and warped in a blanket? Isn't that basically the same the Tone Hound is doing? :)
     
  5. Studdy

    Studdy Member

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    "removed the paper and warped in a blanked?" ????
     
  6. Kazrog

    Kazrog CEO/CTO, Kazrog, Inc.

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    I don't really have a speaker I feel like doing that with, and the Tone Hound is really aggressively priced considering it's made in Germany and comes in custom tolex colors. I love it!
     
  7. Studdy

    Studdy Member

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    Stupid question, i have 300 watt fender pa speaker that for some reason does not want to work. Would it work as a loadbox/tonehound?
     
  8. Kazrog

    Kazrog CEO/CTO, Kazrog, Inc.

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    If it's not working at all there may be a problem with it receiving current properly, in which case it could be dangerous. There are others on this forum who've built a variety of project load boxes, perhaps you could ask them for pointers?
     
  9. JakeAC5253

    JakeAC5253 Frozen Sun Audio

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    This is a common misconception, you don't need to use power amp modeling when loading an IR response as IRs already have power amp coloration modeled within them. If you like the sound it's one thing, but don't think that you "have" to do it. Try running your tube pre straight into a cab IR and dial it from there ;)
     
  10. The Dane

    The Dane Member

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    Good point and yes it's fairly priced, I was just wondering... :)
     
  11. thefalloftheheretic

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    I'm definitely trying this, now that the X50 can run only the poweramp.
     
  12. Ascendant

    Ascendant Member

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    It's a misconception that IRs "model" the power amp as well, since IRs can't recreate non linear behaviour (power amp tubes), you'll only get a snapshot of the equalization. But you're right, power amp simulation isn't required to get a good tone.
     
  13. JakeAC5253

    JakeAC5253 Frozen Sun Audio

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    True, IR emulation technology does not at this time present the opportunity to truly model touch sensitivity, maybe Shanes' program does, but IRs don't in and of themselves. Amp sim power amp modeling can't model this either, they model only the coloration of the power amp in just the same way that an IR does. So again, it makes way more sense to use only digital preamp emulation and then choose the IR that fits that preamp the best and dial from there. In my experience with this method, poor tones come from shortcomings in the IRs themselves, NOT the method. Plus you have to tweak less knobs when working this way, and I like that :)

    I'm anxious to get the Recab update and try my IRs out in his loader with speaker distortion emulation on them. I'm convinced this will lead to something really good.
     
  14. Flow Of Time

    Flow Of Time Member

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    Whoops, I thought the Recabinet IRs were created with a solid state poweramp.. Did some research aaand I was wrong -.-

    Anyway, I bought it a few days ago and I'm very pleased with it.
    Now I'm just not shure anymore if I should rather use the preamp out instead of the speaker out...
     
  15. Kazrog

    Kazrog CEO/CTO, Kazrog, Inc.

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    A few quick things:
    • Recabinet 3's library was created with solid state power. Previous versions were not.
    • Recabinet does not model power tubes in any way.
    • ENGL preamps can sound great with or without power tube saturation (or simulation), so by all means experiment and find what sounds best for your music and/or productions.
     
  16. Deathell

    Deathell Member

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    Thanks Jake but I already knew that and that was the first thing I did was going straight into recab.. sounded decent so I tried adding the X50 with it's preamp off and poweramp on, made a world of a difference together with recab's speaker dynamics at 100%. Plus this way I can tweak the power amp section on the low end and presence just like a full tube head.

    straight into recab


    with X50 power amp then into recab
     
    #56 Deathell, Feb 20, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 23, 2015
  17. Kazrog

    Kazrog CEO/CTO, Kazrog, Inc.

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    I love X50, but part of the "world of difference" here is that the guitars are much louder relative to the rest of the mix in the second clip. Make sure to match levels as closely as possible to make sure you are judging things fairly. Definitely a chunky tone, though!
     
  18. Deathell

    Deathell Member

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    Thanks.. Sorry my bad, it was a quick post by just turning off X50 then render. By using the X50 however did add that extra oomph and depth to tone. BTW for the next update could you please allow us to turn off high and low pass filters? Sometimes I'd like to do that in other plugs more delicately ex; -6 dB/oct, -12dB/oct, -18dB/oct, etc.
     
  19. Kazrog

    Kazrog CEO/CTO, Kazrog, Inc.

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    Just click the glowing LEDs next to any EQ control to bypass that band. You can turn them all off to disable the EQ entirely also.

    And yes, I can imagine how your clip might sound level-matched. The tone definitely has more of the 5150 squash to it with X50's power amp sim, which is great.
     
  20. Deathell

    Deathell Member

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    Oh dear me hehe :p, btw how loud is that tonehound cab? What is the loudness comparable to when you crank up your amp through it? I've been searching for demos and whatnot since nobody has posted anything on it on youtube, would be cool if you or anyone that has a tonehound could do a vid on the loudness.
     

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