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Discussion in 'The Philosopher' started by cthulufhtagn, Apr 11, 2005.
So she knows she is going to die, and as such is trying to become good with god?
Always a pleasure seeing others that have their intellect firmly based in reason rather than fantasy.
Common sense is spreading.
Yeah, she's freaked out.
I think to a certain extent religious views in the music are a gimme. To make music, one must at some level feel strongly about what they are writing, or else the lack of emotion will become apparent and the music will not seem real. As a converse to that, some bands step too heavily upon their soapboxes, and begin to preach. Bm bands have their place and their fanbase, not much to worry about, but sometimes it seems they all say the same thing. "Kill God, fuck his angels, destroy his Earth", that sort of stuff. As stated before, it has its place and fans, but I believe that perhaps they should keep their convictions more isolated. Many complain about the Jesus-freaks and their oppressive attitudes toward those less-than-mentionable aspects of an immoral society, which we are, but it doesn't make much sense to rebel against it by doing the same thing. Flashing the pentagrams, wearing the obscene t-shirts, loudly expressing distaste in vulgar ways for the Christain faith, it solves nothing and merely serves to drive a wedge farther between us as a people, especially in the metal community. I myself am not a Christian, but I believe your views are your views, and everyone has a right to believe what they want, just keept it in that context. Keep it in the music, and let us make up our own minds and keept it in our minds, our last and most sacred sanctuary.
Maybe I should have clarified for the second sentence: when I said beliefs, I meant values imposed by religions and therefore ideas which make you act more like a doll than like a human being. What I wanted to say exactly is that people should make their own ideas, their own values ( or beliefs ) and reasonnings instead of blindly following a religion.
I do believe in some stuffs, but I chose what I wanted to believe, it has not been imposed on me. Some people never ask question and just act like they are told to. There's an exemple: Musulmans have to pray 5 times a day (something like that). Now, they have the right to do so, but did they ever question themselves if praying 5 times a day really was necessary? Is praying necessary at all? What makes you believe some entity we can't even see hear you? Some beliefs are reasonnable, such as believing the existence of a god, but others are not.
While beliefs are necessary to maintain some level of happiness (because religions were invented, I believe, mainly to give us a reason to exist), they will only enslave you if you don't control these beliefs with reasonnings.
I don't know if my post will be useful all in all, I don't argue very well in english, but oh well...
Faults with this post:
1. The underlying ignorance, in that black metal has a pretty wide variety of lyrical themes (certainly no less so than other metal genres), and that most of the widely-praised bands in both underground and mainstream communities are far from the reactionary stereotype you describe.
2. Some BM bands want to cause as much of a wedge as possible, to the point where panic and mayhem is caused and civilisation collapses. You speak as if they don't.
3. Most of the BM crowd don't believe everyone has a right to believe what they want, because they believe Christianity is a plague that needs to be destroyed. In a sense you're preaching to the devil, basically saying "opposing christian beliefs is silly because <insert christian belief>".
I doubt there's anyone in the world who that actually applies to, thus rendering the rest of your post groundless. Everyone's worldview is shaped by their society and the people around them, yours is too. There's little difference between religion and society in the sense you're describing, what you're basically proposing is anarchy.
OR just to stop existing which is a pretty scary thought as well. The answer is no. They don't tend to realise it, though.
That "good" should be in quotation marks, in that it's actually illusory, there's no objective good. Otherwise, I agree.
Really? But people have the choice to believe or not what they are told, yes or no?
Personally I think that reason and passion aren't incongruent, it just takes reason to work out what's really worth being passionate about.
Eh, I agree with that.
In a sense. This is a difficult one to explain. Basically, I could ask you to choose which was most wrong out of murder and dishonouring one's government, and you would say "murder" and it would be your choice and your own belief, but your belief will actually have been formed because society villainises the act of murder more than it villainises dishonouring those above you, and you will have grown up with one as seemingly universally worse than the other. Of course parents, and genes, and other such things have an effect too, but the point is that your will is shaped by the world, you don't shape your will. We're never free from external influence, we are in fact partially a product of it.
Summary: we're entirely a product of our genes and our environment, and our beliefs and convictions are formed because of those things too. This means that our minds aren't really "free" to choose, genuine free will is illusory, we are who we are because of who we've been made to be.
So that's why you said my entire post isn't valid. Well, fair enough, you make some sense and I tend to think like that too.
Edit: Still, the rest of my post could be separated from the first sentence and make a point.
Yeah, but it's almost like proposing anarchy, presuming you agree with me. The only way a person can have a will that isn't imposed upon them by society is to not have a society to enforce any laws or sense of what's "right" or "good".
I guess I see the whole idea of "imposing" a value upon someone as a bit ludicrous. If we do have personal choice, then we choose to have said value "imposed" and thus it's not really "imposed" at all. If we don't, then everything from our mums telling us not to touch fires to an enticing slogan on a chocolate bar could be said to be "imposing" upon us in that it's affecting our perceptions in some way, and it becomes an integral part of life we should accept.
I must say that the actual values themselves are more important to me than the methods used to cause people to hold them. Obviously though, the influence is the source, and it's important to trace things to their source to fully understand them, not to mention eradicate or cherish them depending on their value.
But yeah, I agree with your general view that people following something based on faith over reason doesn't yield great results.
It's as if you intentionally tried to prove my point. My underlying ignorance, as you put it, was a quick harmless generalization in the interest of time and space conservation. To label a certain religion as a plague to be removed from the earth is quite a lofty ideal, one no mortal should hold himself up to. I am not, as I said, a christian, I can merely see the exact same patterns of behavior amongst the members of both religions(satanism and christianity). Both smell of hypocrisy and only the most fanatical of delusional androids may claim ascendance through their ranks. Both think themselves to be right where no one else is, so they give fuel to the endless vortex of folly, where people are ridiculed and/or killed because they worship a different invisible man than someone else. It is all foolery, therefore one has no right or intelligent justification to call one religion or more a plague. We are ignorant children stashed on a spinning ball of rock, sitting in circles and reaching for stars that seem much closer than they are. Divinity cannot be grasped by us, so we use organized religion, both satanism and christianity(insert whatever belief you see that as, I grow weary of titles.) Music is a tool we use to express ourselves, or find those who feel the same and identify with their beleifs or feelings, but your beliefs are not mine. Keep the fanaticism to yourself, because if civilization was going to collapse because of something as stupid as religion or otherwise, it would have done it long ago. Don't hold your breathe on that one.
1. We agree that Satanism is no different to Christianity. I listen to loads of BM and I don't think a single artistically relevant band is reactionary Satanist stuff, so I consider BM irrelevant to the discussion, but 'tever.
2. It's possible to oppose Christianity without it being for some other divine religion. I oppose it because the values of current society, founded in Christian theology, cater for none of the things I care about. I don't really care about the God-worship, it's the values that I wish to destroy.
I won't keep the fanaticism to myself, how about you stop oppressing me maan?
So we agree on some of the finer points, but as a student of societal behaviors you know that christianity gathers its many ideals and creeds from religions and soicieties it has conquered along the way. It survives not because of its strength in roots, but its repulsive ability to consume and morph its shape. The language, the symbols, the creeds, most were borrowed from other religions and societies. Christianity is a shadow of what it was before, but still retained its roots of dishonesty and genocide. I will oppose it with you on those grounds, but I simply can't condone chaos and the end of a civilization that has not yet been lifted from its infancy. We've got 60,000 or so years compared to an earth whose age is in the billions, I must believe we will learn to live without lies at some point, if only in the interest of self-preservation. Fanaticism has its place for those who would be swayed by someone else's opinions about how life should be played for them, and you can have it man. Just acknowledge that I do my best to resist the infiltration of my mind.
WarHammer, your post reeks of ignorance. Dishonesty, genocide, and other acts in the name of religion are among the biggest complaints against faiths, but you're only looking at the extremes and making a judgement. Everything that requires trust or belief in it has fundamentalists and fanatics, from politics to music even. Religion is not some mass-murdering force that blinds people into a stupor of devotion. Those nutjobs make up a small percentage of those religions, and to judge their values and faith based upon them is ludicrous. Institutions and nations under the beliefs of atheism and nihilism have caused FAR more damage through their tools of Nazism and Communism than Christianity has. If you want to talk about "infiltration" of your mind, I suggest you stop buying into the trendy religious-bashing of today and look at the true sources and roots for those beliefs. You will find something altogether different from what you claim to hate about it's fanaticism.
I merely said I opposed Christianity on the grounds of dishonesty and genocide. But I think it is your ignorance becoming apparent to say religion is not a mass-murdering force, god being the most commone cause of death throughout history. The death-toll for all groups is about even, where the nazis and communists took off is where the christians leftoff from their crusades, and their spread throughout the world. It has long been known that christian's views of seeing the light has meant death. My trendy religious views have come about by reading the creeds of religions, and then studying the behaviors of their followers, andI deplore it. Call me what you will, however. The true source of all religious belief reeks of either self-importance, self-interest, or the fear of death. I will get along fine on my own, and I have found plenty of things to hate.
I agree with your criticism of fascism etc, but come on man, Christianity has been used to kill more people than any cause, idea, religion etc. Even Islam was far more tolerant and non-violent.
The problem here is that no cause is worth dying for or really arguing for; there all pretty much incomplete, overly idealistic, naive fairy tales, or exploited by clever leaders who see past such idiotic ideas.
Seriously man, what kind of fucking failure was that jew from Nazareth? What do you think he would say about the last 2,000 years? I would think he would be a bit envious of Mohammed who did a far better job of creating a monotheistic religion. He surely should be envious of his foe Satan who's material earth has pretty much taken over. What a fucking failure.
And why hasnt he come back to save his worthless fucking religion? I mean the world has been a cesspool according to Christ's teachings since he died. For christ sakes the Catholic Church in Assisi accepts donations in Saint Francis vault; dont worry, they accept credit cards, personal checks, and any form of currency.