This site is supported by the advertisements on it, please disable your AdBlocker so we can continue to provide you with the quality content you expect.

Welcome to Our Community

Wanting to join the rest of our members? Feel free to sign up today.

Metal and Fascist Idealism

Discussion in 'General Metal Discussion' started by Planetary Eulogy, Sep 5, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Planetary Eulogy

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2003
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I frequently find myself at the center of a debate over what "belongs" in metal. Most often, it comes up in the context of my defense of bands who hold socially unpopular viewpoints about race and politics. The charge usually levelled by dogmatic liberals is that fascism doesn't "belong" in metal, but the reality is quite different. Far from being inimical to metal, fascism is the inherent underlying subtext of the genre and represents both its reason to be and its logical endpoint.

    Metal was born as a reaction against rock 'n roll and the reductive logic of liberalism. From its inception, the best metal consistently expressed a set of values and ideals that could best be termed crypto-fascist, embracing the Nietzschean Will to Power and wedding it to a strong Romantic streak and an idealism rooted in an impulse toward the epic and mythical. The subsequent development of metal saw waves of innovators refine the artform, bringing greater emphasis to its central values and incrementally stripping away peripheral elements and the last vestiges of liberal ideology. This trend reached its peak in the mid-90's with bands like Burzum and Graveland, who expressed openly that which had hitherto merely been implied. Far from being usurpers of metal, they represent the purest and greatest expression of what metal can and should be.
     
  2. AjDeath

    AjDeath Of One Man's Sanity

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,490
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Fuckston, ME
    WTF? Its frigging music. Some of it may be tied up in some ideal or whatever, but man, it is just music. Don't over analyze the whole genre.
     
  3. Jean-Pierre

    Jean-Pierre Son of The Bitch

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,965
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Detroit, MI
    I like a little bit of Burzum and a lot of Graveland, but if they are exactly "what Metal should be", count me the fuck out. :Smug:

    While there are many disagreements of opinion and such on this board, all sane users must agree: People need to fuck off with the stupid ideology arguments.
     
  4. Planetary Eulogy

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2003
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Actually, the sane users (i.e. the ones who aren't liberal twats in it for the socializing) understand that ideology is of central relevance to understanding and truly appreciating music.
     
  5. LordFireworm

    LordFireworm Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2002
    Messages:
    1,034
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    38
    While I can see your point, I also think you attribute far too many of these bands with large levels of foresight and a capacity to rationalise what they're doing. Do you think Autopsy gave a shit about Nietzche? Also, considering Varg changes his ideologies like most people change their underpants, what are you going to do when he decides the next step is for him to be a pirate?

    Also, if metal was born "as a reaction to rock and roll", how small a part exactly did Motorhead play in it's incarnation? Or Venom for that matter.
    As for bands like Graveland and Nokternal Mortum, I don't really give a shit. With the exception of "pop", every form of music has it's own racist sect. I'm still surprised, however, that they all manage to sound like such idiots in interviews. Have you read any of Darken's ramblings? They guy thinks he's fucking Conan the Barbarian.
     
  6. no country for old wainds

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Messages:
    25,780
    Likes Received:
    8,829
    Trophy Points:
    113
    "Ever since the beginning, metal has been elitist; it was a reaction against populist values and a populist world. This is a principle which is closely linked to fascism. It evolved as a musical representation of that worldview, and bands who try to use the same aesthetic to represent something different are like people playing soccer to hit the ball into the crowd rather than score a goal.

    If you're fascist, you're intolerant of populism. If you're liberal, you're tolerant of pretty much everything but intolerance. Similar to music - if you're intolerant of populism, you'll write something that only a few people 'get' but clearly has more value than 99% of stuff everyone DOES get (Sabbath, anyone? OMG NO DEMONIC SATANIC BAND). If you're tolerant of everything but intolerance, you'll write some shitty generic pop song. "
     
  7. LordFireworm

    LordFireworm Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2002
    Messages:
    1,034
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    38
    GoD, did you cut that from somewhere? Why the quotation marks?
     
  8. no country for old wainds

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Messages:
    25,780
    Likes Received:
    8,829
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I posted it under the same topic on Metal Rules.
     
  9. lord667

    lord667 =UM=Heartburn

    Joined:
    May 13, 2002
    Messages:
    1,084
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Coventry, UK
    Such as?

    Metal was "born" from four Brummie lads' desire to write "scary music" in a jazz/blues context. Everything else is a later development. Metal has no political root, but is open enough to complexity and development that politics and ideology can find a place. Consequently, all politics have a place in metal.
     
  10. Tanith

    Tanith Halo Fetus

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2003
    Messages:
    3,443
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Shrewsbury, UK
    Precisely what I was thinking.

    I think PE is overanalysing the genre. Sure, alot of (mainly BM) metal bands have a very facist/racist view of the world, and while this shines through in their lyrics, I dont think it has any relevance whatsoever to the actual music. And you look on the other hand and alot of thrash bands have political views on the opposite end of the spectrum.

    IMO, limiting a genre to a single political opinion is completely retarded. Everyone has a different political opinion, and I fail to see how this should influence their preference in music.
     
  11. AjDeath

    AjDeath Of One Man's Sanity

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,490
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Fuckston, ME
    Intelligence.
     
  12. Jean-Pierre

    Jean-Pierre Son of The Bitch

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,965
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Detroit, MI
    So much tr00bie bullshit, so little time. Music is entertainment.
     
  13. Erik

    Erik New Metal Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2001
    Messages:
    16,450
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    southernmost voyage
    Bah. I agree that metal is always anti-populist, and that anti-populism is a part of fascism (?!) but embracing one value of fascism, an entire set of ideas & values, doesn't make metal as a whole fascist, or even closely linked to it.
     
  14. Jean-Pierre

    Jean-Pierre Son of The Bitch

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,965
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Detroit, MI
    Be quiet. You're liberal and unintellegent, quit being a jew, you kike. ;)
     
  15. Tanith

    Tanith Halo Fetus

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2003
    Messages:
    3,443
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Shrewsbury, UK
    .
     
  16. no country for old wainds

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Messages:
    25,780
    Likes Received:
    8,829
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Obviously music inspired by a fascist ideology is going to sound a certain way to evoke the spirit of that worldview. I've said that a thousand times.

    Even Sabbath, intentionally or not, played music that went against the norm, explored darker topics which the general masses understood little of, rejected typical populist music in favour of something better. These values are shared by fascism.
     
  17. Jean-Pierre

    Jean-Pierre Son of The Bitch

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,965
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Detroit, MI
    Ok, shared, but does that make them the same fucking thing? No. Be logical, goddammit.
     
  18. no country for old wainds

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Messages:
    25,780
    Likes Received:
    8,829
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Anti-populism is a range of values & ideas rather than just one, don't forget. I can't type properly right now, I'll discuss this further tomorrow.
     
  19. no country for old wainds

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Messages:
    25,780
    Likes Received:
    8,829
    Trophy Points:
    113
    In a sense. They're both driven by the same thing. I'll need to elaborate later though. Going to bed now.
     
  20. Tanith

    Tanith Halo Fetus

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2003
    Messages:
    3,443
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Shrewsbury, UK
    Oh I agree entirely, but thats not to say that the music was entirely inspired by political views. Early BM bands such as Bathory didn't found the genre on a political viewpoint, more their desire to create innovative and original music. I suppose that later on bands twisted the genre's sound to suit their own political agenda, but in the end, its all music, which can be enjoyed by anyone. I'm a liberal, yet I enjoy Arghoslent. I dont judge music by the bands beliefs, more how the music sounds. IMO, thats how music should be looked at. Anyone who enjoys music depending on the bands political standing is looking at music the wrong way. Its entertainment, nothing else.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page