Separate names with a comma.
Wanting to join the rest of our members? Feel free to sign up today.
Discussion in 'General Metal Discussion' started by Planetary Eulogy, Sep 5, 2004.
You rule, man!
Haha. Kill yourself. Slowly.
Next Lesson in dealing with postmodernists:
Once they stand exposed, they immediately go on the defensive with rampant ad hominems. Another diversionary tactic, and based on this - "Haha. Kill yourself. Slowly." - an obviously well-thought-out one.
This is the LAST place I would ever expect to see a mention of Steven A. Smith.
Who needs to think when we can bang our heads? Isnt that what metal is about? Or did I hit my head one too many times against a solid object?
Hey check out this piece of a common dictionary
I agree with Tanith.
Btw, the wankery of the english language in this thread is fucked. Get over yourselves.
PE: You're absolutely right that fascism has a base in Romantic idealism. Quite literally, since it takes its inspiration from a mythicised Golden Age of the Roman Empire. However, as you also rightly say, it is a form of Romantic idealism. That means that a Romantic idealist is just a Romantic idealist: not necessarily also a fascist. Looking to the ancient and mythic for inspiration are hardly conclusive indicators of fascist thought. Sabbath, indeed, opposed strong governments and dictatorial leaders, whenever they addressed the topic at all.
Then the person who is using the ideas in their eternal context should not use labels for them that refer to specific 19th/20th-century political movements. It's not too hard to come up with a more accurate word, e.g. "proto-fascist", that actually represents what you're talking about instead of confusing the issue.
Thank fucking Christ.
In fairness, I've read stupider shit on here and had no idea whether or not your own ideals fell under the same pink umbrella as Demiurge's.
Here's a relevant one:
Notice it, but only because I saw that the kid had "Jean-Pierre" on his name tag and I figured there might be a correlation.
The problem in that thread, as in this one, is that Sol Invictus/Planetary Eulogy is using personalised, non-general, or made-up definitions for words like "metal" and "fascism". Instead of twisting existing words (and defining Fascism as an eternal set of ideals or a broad general outlook is twisting the word) he should come up with more accurate ones. Failing that, he should include a Planetary Eulogy glossary with his posts. As it is, he apparently considers an argument "won" if he can veil his point in enough semantic sleight-of-hand that nobody can even understand what it is until the second page of the thread at the earliest.
I sense that this thread is turning into a complete waste of time, so I'll make my final statements. First of all, "Romantic Idealism" does not automatically equate to fascism, either in the real sense or the Planetary-ese sense. Romanticism, as you'll see in the links posted earlier by one of Planetary's sympathisers, means very little except an emphasis on emotion, and idealism means clinging to a personal set of values. Liberalism, Communism and Fascism can all claim an equal root in something that could be thought of as Romantic Idealism, so to prove a link between metal and Romantic Idealism offers little support for a metal link to fascism.
Secondly, I agree that music inevitably expresses the ideology of the artist. But it does so on an Expressionistic level, that is, expressing the emotional rather than political side of the ideology, which can be the same for different people and different modes of thought.
Thirdly and finally, only a complete idiot would deny that some metal has fascist potential. The combination of energy, aggression and artistic scope that metal offers makes it ideal for those who want to glorify war, smash states, promote warrior cults, etc., so I think we'd be fools to deny a certain inherent suitability for fascism in the music - as opposed to, say, White Light neo-hippyism, which would have a job to fit - as one of many things that it could comfortably play host to. But, in my opinion, it's equally foolish to say that metal is fascist in nature just because of a partial resemblance between "metal" things and "broader fascist" things. Again in my opinion, it proves only that "metal" and "broader fascist" elements share a common heritage.
All a few of us asked were for someone to define these terms as they mean them. Me, being such a dumb Americaner, automatically took fascism at face value pertaining to it's most recent context in history. Anyways, you can not win or even present an argument being so damn ambiguous.
The argument PE presents is null anyways because the terms he used (meant) were so broad in meaning that it doesn't matter. It would be like me defining a tomato as any fruit or vegetable that has seeds and is edible. It doesn't even fucking matter.
This was an excellent set of points you made here. I guess I got beaten to the punch. Well done. However, about the third point, I just have to mention that although it may seem as if it has streamlined since its very inception, metal has never been branded with a particular code or fashion or political ideology. In fact, the accessibility of metal to hybridization with numerous other styles of music(i.e. polka, techno, jazz, etc.) simply reinforces the fact that metal knows no bounds or limitations. Although to some the fusion of metal's seemingly war-mongering militant style with fascist or "broader fascist" ideals seems natural, I maintain that the inclusion of so-called neo-hippyism is equally viable in the context that metal is universal. Here is where the Romantic Idealism plays in. If any mood is purely indicative of what metal is in a nutshell, it is Romantic Idealism. An emotional set of beliefs or feelings expressed through a powerful medium of sonic bludgeoning that mirrors the spontaniety and explosive quality that is associated with human emotion. PE's coupling of Romantic Idealism and fascism was appropriate, probably because he feels great emotion for his fascist ideals or the ideals in general. Metal is universal in that sense because it is a vehicle for any kind of intense emotion, regardless of political ideology. This is referenced by your second point. I also bring up the 'hair bands' of the 80's. They usually picked love as a topic because, although many are shamed to admit it, metal is a powerful musical tool for expressing as complex a human emotion as love.
A couple of thoughts:
1. Fascism and Romanticism are indistinguishable in terms of values and ideals. Fascism merely articulated openly that which was implied by the 19th century Romantics. The terms are effectively interchangable, as all Romanticism can accurately be said to have a fundamentally fascist character.
2. Sabbath were certainly not fascist in any open sense, but the latent similarities that would later be more fully articulated were already present. The comparison here should be made to the earliest figures of the Romantic movement, who, while they were motivated by a disgust with the failures of the Enlightenment, still had not yet fully separated themselves from the ideas of the Enlightenment. They were transitional figures with one foot in the Enlightenment and one foot in the mythic past. Later Romantics stripped away the vestigal remains of Enlightenment thought (just as later metal bands stripped the vestigal remains of liberal thought from the movement that Sabbath wrought), and the Romantic movement reached its full flowering with figures like Nietzsche and Wagner, men whose ideas and ideals were fascist in every sense of the word.
I've nothing further to say on this subject right now. However, thanks for the food-for-thought.
Whoa, whoa! Wagner was a fascist?!
*burns copy of Der Ring des Nibelungen*
A specific style of goverment REQUIRES a specific form of society to work. What is democracy? Is it just a specific type of goverment? Hell no. It requires certain beliefs not commonly mentioned in the dictionary. Egalitarianism should be an obvious requirement. Society will then be shaped acording to these beliefs. Perhaps one could say that the goverment democracy is a product of the democratic values.
Fascism works in the same way. Take a look at nazi germany. Was it just the type of goverment that distuinguished it from (as an example) the United Kingdom? Was the difference just as simple as the fact that no elections were allowed in Germany? I sincerely hope no one will answer yes to this question. The whole society was different. The definion used in the dictionary does not cover this.
(I hope this post made some sense. It was made in a hurry before I went to bed)
It makes sense. However, I fail to see how Romantic Idealism is not more akin to the kind of fiery emotion that can only be expressed in a liberalized environment. People tend to look down on Egalitarianism, and yet I find that the passion imbued by faith in God and enacting His grace through helping others is a deep and powerful basis for creating art. A Romantic notion, if you will.
personaly I dont think there is any fasisim in metal. becuase we're not a bunch of fuckin hippies speaking about poltics through music, because theres no real cause veitnam was a whole different story. I know R.A.T.M. tried it and even though the music was good I just dont give a shit.
but maybe I'm wrong, maybe there is some "hidden agenda"