This site is supported by the advertisements on it, please disable your AdBlocker so we can continue to provide you with the quality content you expect.

Welcome to Our Community

Wanting to join the rest of our members? Feel free to sign up today.

Metal Fans Liberal or Conservative?

Discussion in 'ProgPower USA Lounge' started by Anomander Rake, Feb 2, 2012.

  1. General Zod

    General Zod Ruler of Australia

    Joined:
    May 1, 2001
    Messages:
    14,208
    Likes Received:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    New Jersey
    I don't suspect that charge is being levied against anyone on this board. The vast majority of people I've met at PP have their hearts in the right place, regardless of which party or movement they most closely identify. However, within the broader libertarian and conservative movements, it's hard not to see there's a element of racism. I think the people on the left tend to exaggerate the size of that element, while the people on the right tend to downplay it. And as with most things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

    I recently heard someone say, "Being a libertarian or a conservative doesn't mean you're a racist. However, being a racist likely means you're a conservative or a libertarian." While I think that's painting with a broad brush, I do think there's more than just a little truth to that. If someone is a racist, it's simply unlikely they're going to vote for a typical democrat. There's a reason minorities, women, LGBT, etc. vote for democrats in large numbers. Still, no party or movement is blameless and all political movements have their share of crazies.
     
  2. The Colorado Kid

    Joined:
    May 7, 2002
    Messages:
    287
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16

    You're right. I wasn't leveling this charge against any individual poster. I was so concerned that my words could be misconstrued I revised my original post multiple times to add clarity to my position. Intent doesn't always translate well in a written format, and neither does my affable nature. :) That's why I gave an example: The Tea Party.


    I agree 100%. I've met racist people all over the United States. The Tea Party, and others like it, are their preferred political parties of choice. A Venn diagram would clearly show them as a subset of the libertarian/conservative set. It's just how they roll.



    One other minor point. Discussions require the sharing of ideas. The heartbeat of writing, and the birthplace of ideas, is the paragraph. Culling, and spinning, a small portion of an idea doesn't help. Those types of replies don't add to the discussion at hand, they merely stifle it.
     
  3. Metalmilitia2000

    Metalmilitia2000 UM's Resident Asshole

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2003
    Messages:
    3,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Maplewood, Minnesota
    I'm a libertarian/borderline anarchist. I think I saw a shirt one time that pretty much summed up how I feel.

    "I want gay married couples to protect their marijuana plants with guns that they purchased with bitcoins."

    I'm not gay, have never done a drug in my life, and don't own any bitcoins, but I very much live by the philosophy that if what you are doing isn't causing myself or others harm, go have fun and do whatever it is you want to do in life.
     
  4. Metalmilitia2000

    Metalmilitia2000 UM's Resident Asshole

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2003
    Messages:
    3,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Maplewood, Minnesota
    Eh, I believe that libertarians are just believers in anarchy-lite.

    ;)
     
  5. AeonicSlumber

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2008
    Messages:
    4,893
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    The whole "accusing someone of being narrow-minded is narrow-minded of you" thing is one of the largest leaps of logical fallacy ever unearthed by the human mind.
     
  6. Justin G

    Justin G Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2007
    Messages:
    5,170
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Northern VA
    I love libertarians. They get to smugly judge both major parties without ever having to put their philosophy into practice.
     
  7. Mardoch

    Mardoch Defender of the Universe

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    3,079
    Likes Received:
    170
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Baton Rouge, LA
    Hot ice! You heat up! The ice cubes! IT'S THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS!
     
  8. The Colorado Kid

    Joined:
    May 7, 2002
    Messages:
    287
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    SING IT! You know you want to! :)
    [​IMG]
     
  9. booB

    booB Señor Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2003
    Messages:
    4,439
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Cleveland, OH USA
    Who is narrow-minded again? Apparently not the "All _________ are racist" crowd...

    Man, what is with people on this board? ProgPower used to be such an inclusive event... apparently nowadays it's okay to just hurl personal insults at anyone who doesn't blindly follow the status quo...
     
  10. Metalmilitia2000

    Metalmilitia2000 UM's Resident Asshole

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2003
    Messages:
    3,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Maplewood, Minnesota
    Kind of hard to put our philosophy into practice when everyone else keeps voting for the same people over and over again while expecting change. That's precisely why I stopped voting. I'll live my life as I please and if someone has a problem with it, government included, they can kiss my ass.
     
  11. Mardoch

    Mardoch Defender of the Universe

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    3,079
    Likes Received:
    170
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Baton Rouge, LA
    I'm pretty sure that was a lighthearted jab.
     
  12. Justin G

    Justin G Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2007
    Messages:
    5,170
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Northern VA
    It was a generalized statement. There was literally nothing personal about it.
     
  13. The Colorado Kid

    Joined:
    May 7, 2002
    Messages:
    287
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16

    The above includes the portion of my post that you pulled and spun, in an obnoxiously snarky way. Your reply added nothing to the discussion: There's no request for clarity, or the expression of any idea, save for the abrasively smug pettiness. The irony is that your reply strengthens my argument.

    When I wrote,
    it was directed at your reply; how those kinds of replies stifle dialog, and that's exactly what's happened. I find it difficult to take your complaints about inclusiveness seriously when you don't extend that same courtesy to others. If you want to discuss what you disagreed with in my post, then step up and express yourself.
     
  14. AeonicSlumber

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2008
    Messages:
    4,893
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Correct, the racists are the narrow-minded ones.
     
  15. AeonicSlumber

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2008
    Messages:
    4,893
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Frankly, it's rather bizarre that you took a joke that wasn't at all directly addressed to you as a "personal insult," using the word "inclusive" as to imply that you're a member of some minority group.
     
  16. The Colorado Kid

    Joined:
    May 7, 2002
    Messages:
    287
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    By varying degrees, yes. I believe that government should be frugal, and for the people. I can't deny that some of the libertarian ideals are somewhat whimsical, if it were even possible to put them into practice. The "do as you want as long as it doesn't hurt others," mantra, for example, is laudable. On an individual basis I agree with it wholeheartedly. It would eliminate so much clutter from our daily lives; however, corporations exist to generate profits, and they will put others at risk for the sake of profits. This has been documented enough times that the government had to step in and do something about it. That's where things break down, in my opinion. Libertarianism is great at a personal level, but things blur when the focus shifts to larger groups, companies, and countries.

    I own at least one of Ron Paul's books. I like the guy a lot, and believe he has some good ideas, and a few great ones. I think his views on our government and the Federal Reserve are good starting points, but are too idealistic to work in the real world. There's no denying that some of his supporters are racist. Over the years he has repeatedly tried to distance himself from that debacle, but it has crippled his political aspirations.


    His son, Rand, on the other hand, is a raging douche-tard who should leave politics altogether before he destroys the last remnants of his father's legacy.



    Thank you, but I'm a moron. :) Seriously... just ask my wife. lol...
    There's a reason I mentioned the Tea Party. When the TP started out it was an impressive grass-roots movement. Then it got corrupted by GOP special interests. There are a gobs of libertarian-leaning folks who aren't racist, but a lot of racists tend to identify with the pseudo-conservative/libertarian ideals that groups like the TP promote, especially in its current form. That's not how the TP started out, but that's where they are today. Here's where, I believe, things gets tricky.

    We're being manipulated to pick each other apart, when the real problem lies in the large corporations. No full-time employee of Wal-Mart should need government, or state, assistance. The same goes for many other bottom feeding corps like McDonalds, etc... The government is subsidizing their salaries, while these companies take advantage of the rest of us. In a free market we shouldn't have to worry about someone undercutting our salaries because our skill set should dictate what we earn. The problem is that there is so much rampant corporate welfare and loopholes that not only do many corporations get large tax breaks, they don't even have to pay their employees enough money to sustain them. That is a failure of the free market, and it reflects the level of corporate corruption. The sad truth is that a majority of government assistance goes to working households.

    The irony is that many outspoken proponents who want to abolish government assistance often took advantage of government assistance themselves. Some of these same people then try to justify their outrageous incomes - incomes which are not in line with any other first-world country, yet resist any thought of an employee earning a "living wage."

    Greed. You've got to love it.


    The image of the lazy, deadbeat, is a tool of propaganda, just as the image of the large corporation being a "jobs creator" is a myth. But they're used to manipulate the masses into passing legislation that benefits a small percentage of individuals while adversely affecting large swaths of the less fortunate. The poor have no voice, because that requires funding, which is something they're in desperately short supply.



    It's all good. I'd like to see a functioning free market. Where healthcare wasn't used to separate the rich from the dead, and where tens of thousands of children didn't have to go hungry, or not have access to critical health care, because their working parents simply couldn't afford it.
     
  17. NorseBlood

    NorseBlood franks n steins

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,024
    Likes Received:
    155
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Smashville
    There really isn't much difference between democrats and republicans. They're each different heads of the same chimera. They both have big powerful centralized government philosophies. Liberty isn't part of their lexicon. Both parties are made of corrupt individuals who take money and orders from the very same oligarchs. This whole democrat vs republican front that they put on is a useful distraction for them. They don't give a damn about you, me, or the rest of the country as long as they're getting theirs. Complain enough and you'll get investigated by the IRS. Have a nice day.
     
  18. Yippee38

    Yippee38 Living the dream!

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2002
    Messages:
    2,435
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Somewhere at 33,000'
    How the HELL did this thread get raised from the dead? WTF?!!!
     
  19. General Zod

    General Zod Ruler of Australia

    Joined:
    May 1, 2001
    Messages:
    14,208
    Likes Received:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    New Jersey
    I know this has become a popular refrain in recent years and I'm probably guilty of uttering it myself. However, the truth is, there are drastic differences between the two parties. Taxes, health insurance, abortion, civil rights, women's rights, marriage equality, climate change, minimum wage, financial regulation, immigration, guns, etc. Without even thinking, we all know where each party falls on each side of these issues. If anything, the two parties have never been more different. It use to be you could be a democrat or a republican without completely toeing the party line. Now the issues have practically become dogmatic.
     
  20. jaimek

    jaimek incorrigible

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,168
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Apex, NC
    ^^ What Greg said. To rephrase a quote he used a page or two ago - being a Republican doesn't mean you're anti-abortion or anti-gay-marriage (for example), but if you're anti-abortion or anti-gay-marriage, you're probably a Republican. The only way in which they're alike is spinning their wheels and not getting anything accomplished because they're too busy arguing with each other, while the capital-L Libertarians sit around making snarky remarks about the two party system and complain about how it would be better if they ran the show and ... not accomplishing anything either.
     

Share This Page