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Discussion in 'The Philosopher' started by Badbird, Dec 13, 2009.
well whos work did you steal ?
Who no longer has something that they had before? Theft requires loss of a previously possessed something. An artist does not own an uploaded mp3, which isn't lost anyway from the uploader, and they don't lose money that they never had to start with.
This is why it is stealing. It's all about the history of music which I am sure you have no interest in. Originally the only way you could hear music was to go see it live. Therefore the artist got paid. Since they are getting paid for their performance and usually compensated by the draw of audience they made more and more money. Then you record a performance so that people who cannot see your show can still enjoy your music. It is still your performance of your skill which you own because it is you who did it. When it gets transferred to music sheets, you have to pay for that, that was tin pan alley's way of music.
YOu are taking potential sales. That is why it is stealing. If you go into a corner store and steal a chocolate bar they are loosing potential sales because you wanted it, but didn't pay for it. I don't understand how wanting to hear music but not paying for it, is really any different then that. So if you would have listened to it anyways, why didn't you pay for it.
A musician ALWAYS possesses their music, it is theirs and no one elses, you pay them to listen to it. If you didnt steal it they would have recieved their money for their hard work and investment. Or did your "burn" come up blank ?
^ Dakyrn is a tool, a proclaimed "Christian" struggling with the difference between right and wrong here. Via the internet various forms of media are the only magical wand by which you can now aquire someone elses labor for free that was previously impossible.
I guess if we could click somewhere and pop a 28" Sony out of the computer screen that would not be stealing either.... and soon Sony would be out of business.... fucking DUH ! Wonder how Dell and others would feel if we could reproduce computers with a click and copy ? FUCKING DUH !
You still didn't answer my question, SI just stated a bunch of historical facts about the ability to hear music in past times, and razor called out some names and made some ludicrous comparison.
You can't take "potential sales". That's as stupid as the arguement that goes "breaking a window helps the economy grow".
I just got back from a Soilwork concert. Had I never downloaded an album, I would never have attended. I certainly wouldn't have bought an album having not heard it. I said it before, the purpose of recorded music (record company profits aside) is to draw in people to hear the musicians perform live.
Like I said previously, I have also downloaded music, but, I do buy albums of artist that show to me a true talent and passion. I'm just as guilty as the next guy. I however, unlike you dakryn, will never feel entitled to it as if it actually belonged to me.
Like the other example, lets say you wrote an amazing poem. Then a company "copies" the poem so that "everyone else can read it" and gives you jack shit for that piece of yourself, that creation unique only to you. This in turn makes them tones of money. This is what TORRENT sites are doing.
OH. BTW, did you know that record companies are now taking money from tours to make up for the huge loss of sales? How do you think the artist feels about that one?
Being an artist is doing something you love and getting paid for it. It is hard work writing and recording music, and the fact that you steal it means that they are doing all for nothing. You are taking money away from them that they normally would have got from a fan of their music. The fact that you never see many of the bands you like is from the fact that the album sales aren't helping the tour cash flow and as a result they have to tour more cost effective meaning that they don't go overseas, or out of country or even out of state/province.
I am pretty sure the torrent sites aren't making money hand over fist. Advertising doesn't pay very well anymore, since companies figured out like 1% of people ever actually click them. Deron has said this site barely pays for itself.
The writing of music most people do for fun, and so that they can play it period. Recording generally doesn't take that long anymore.
The fact that I don't see some bands I like is international travel has never been cost effective, unless you have a following the size of bands like Iron Maiden, or are on a huge tour with more popular bands. Buying the music doesn't change this. More bands are starting to put their whole album on myspace/their website to promote it, and some have even put it up for download with just a donate option. The times are changing.
As far as record companies taking money from tours, I would like to see the information.
Would I like to buy albums from my favorite bands? Yes. It's not currently economically feasible atm, and besides, I don't want to have CDs or Vinyls stacked everywhere that I have to worry about lugging around everytime I move. I forsee serious instability in North America in the near future, and those become dead weight.
What fucking cloud did you drop in from ?
How many musicians do you know?
more than enough to know they all hope to make income from recording, get signed to a label and booked for national and possibily intenational tours
but its not that way on your cloud I have no doubt
I ever download the music, and, If I like it, I'll buy the CD
Nowadays, musicians need to have publicity, they should make good music and have fans if they want to sell something.
oh really, lets see been playing guitar for 40 years, have a good pile tied up in equipment, done the gig thing, most of my friends and aquaintences are musicians, worked sound for many of them, went to Berklee for a summer course in 75, have done studio recording, have a current project
because you are coming out of cloud nine you should not presume everyone else is
I also have a pile of my own equipment. My brother has been doing live performances for years and have worked with him. I never went to Berklee, but 3 months 35 years ago is hardly worth mentioning. None of what you posted lends any extra weight to your opinion.
If music is to be a business, it must be accountable to the demands of consumers, not the other way around. Here is a great interview quote from Rob Zombie:
douchbag ! It was worth mentioning as I was in the presence of hundreds of musicians, stay focused, you asked a question and I answered it.
who gives a fuck what rob zombie thinks or says ? Is that supposed to be the end all of aspiring artists ?
Look at what NIN and Radiohead did with the downloading. That what lot of musicans should do.
And as earlier, my point is still that things have changed since 1975 (or at whatever point in history). Saying you knew what people were thinking then so you know what they think now is pretty ridiculous.
I never said Rob Zombie was anything special, just pulling that out as an example of the thoughts of a current, semi-popular artist.
that is one thought currently, not the only, another is that people are ripping them off and thus lowering the funding available to make it a profession.
My time at Berklee was not the last exposure I had to musicians... K ? Does your brother make his own music and give the CD's away at his gigs ?
If a person goes into a museum and steals a classic painting... only long enough to take it home and make thousands of copies.. then sneaks back in and returns said painting... does this make it not stealing?
what could possibly be wrong with making counterfeit money ? It looks like money, smells like money, can be paid out and spent like money, the effort was put into making it appear legitimate, so that really should be just fine too... right
I contracted a job, told my employees I could not pay them for thier work until the job was done and I got paid myself. When the job was complete and I recieved the funds guaranteed through the contract but decided my workers didnt need the money and only did the job for the experience they could use for future employment. I dont really feel as though I robbed them of anything, so I believe this was OK to keep the money from thier work and not just settle for my cut as general contractor, this is cool right ?