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OT: Nightwish

Discussion in 'The Iron Maidens' started by nlukes, Nov 3, 2007.

  1. A7

    A7 Live to Win

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    On July 30, 2010, Anette gave birth to her second son (her first with her boyfriend Johan). Congratulations to Anette and Johan!

    A Child is Born
     
  2. pyhrrus13

    pyhrrus13 Member

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    It's funny that you would say this, because "power" is not an asset I associate with Tarja's voice. I find her voice to be too operatic in that it usually sounds like she is hitting the notes but without much power behind them. I don't think she would be that well-known if she had in fact chosen opera instead of symphonic metal.

    I prefer Annette's voice because it is not one-dimensional like Tarja's is. Admittedly I was not a Nightwish fan until she had already joined the band, so perhaps this affects my opinions. Or perhaps those who caught onto the band when Tarja was the singer likewise base their preferences on what is familiar to them.

    Either way, if Tarja publicly stated that it was one more album and then out for her, you can't blame the band for deciding to get a head start on rebuilding and firing her instead.

    I thought Tarja sounded good on the new Scorpions single singing with Klaus though. Her voice blended well with his, though the song itself doesn't
    blow me away.
     
  3. Metallicat180

    Metallicat180 Rockstar-In-Training

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    I'm the same - I like Annette's voice and never became interested in Nightwish until she joined.
     
  4. pyhrrus13

    pyhrrus13 Member

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    I became aware of Nightwish because I was a Sinergy fan and Marco ultimately left Sinergy for Nightwish. Of course Sinergy itself faded away because COB took off for Alexi; that's a shame because that was a great power metal band! So by the time I actually decided to listen it was because of the dramatic split with Tarja and I saw the videos for Amaranth and Bye Bye Beautiful. They really kicked ass on those and I think Annette's style is perfect because when she's rocking with them she SOUNDS like she's rocking, while when I listen to Tarja she always sounds separated from it all - uninterested.

    The ABBA comparison is also apt, those kind of female vocals work well with the symphonic metal background to me.
     
  5. A7

    A7 Live to Win

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    I'm on the same boat with Jenna and phyrrus13. I became a Nightwish fan after discovering the "Amaranth" video a couple of years ago. Though there are dozens of outstanding songs by the Tarja lineup, I prefer the Anette lineup, especially after having seen one of their shows in Seattle. Not that Tarja's vocals are bad, but it's hard to respect her and her husband after that open letter signed by the band.
     
  6. pyhrrus13

    pyhrrus13 Member

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    See, this is kind of what gets me about the Tarjaphiles. Everybody knows that Tarja was leaving after the next album anyway. Her restricted tour demands, flying when everybody else took the bus, these were all crippling factors for the band - who have something of a niche existence anyway. They don't need to be turning away opportunities because of a diva singer.

    Why WOULD you make that last album, under a cloud, knowing there would be no real tour? They did her a favor by letting her go early. Unless of course her real purpose was simply to hold them up for yet more concessions later.

    She has a nice voice, but it really doesn't please me as much as Annette's voice does. Annette puts much more emotion and inflection in her delivery, Tarja is rather cold and clinical. She would be great singing Hildegard Bingen, but not so much rock-oriented music.

    So if your beloved Tarja was leaving anyway, do you really think the rest of the band should lie down and die? I think they took their destiny in hand, and found a singer who is very different, but very good for the band.

    And Tarja is doing what she wants, with freedom, so good for her too.
     
  7. Melisan

    Melisan Member

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    Tarja fans keep pounding on the vocal abilities argument when it's a red herring. It was never about singing ability, it was about Tarja and especially Marcello screwing up that band at every opportunity. You really gotta read the book because it details everything.

    Part of Tarja's problem is she is not healthy. She is diabetic and on a restricted diet. You see the tour rider in the book. Because of this, she's not that tough, and certainly not cut out for extended touring. That much is clear from the book. She is not a road warrior. I think Shinedown are on their 300th show or so supporting their last album. Buckcherry did more than 300 shows for their comeback album "15". That's two years of touring. That would kill her. They had to take constant breaks for her sake. As such, Nightwish were hampered by their inability to really tour. One or two Ozzfest appearances would have done them wonders. Look what it did for Lacuna Coil.

    But really, I also blame Tuomas. He let that crap go on for years. He's too passive and far too unwilling to stand up for his band. That much was obvious when original bassist Sami began screwing up. He didn't want to be in the band, didn't want to tour, but didn't have the balls to quit, so he engaged in self-sabotage to get fired. Tuomas didn't have the balls to fire him. In the end, the band's manager had to fire Sami, and when he got the news, he was relieved. I know the Finns are notorious for being non-confrontational but that's ridiculous. Note they didn't fire Tarja to her face. They gave her a letter and said read it tomorrow.

    Same went on with Tarja and Marcello. The whole incident with the Iron Maiden tour should absolutely have been the last straw, and quite frankly, most any other band would have beaten Marcello within an inch of his life for getting them tossed off a tour with Maiden.

    Really, Tarja fans have no answer for her lack of being a team player. All they can do is go on how Anette is not in Tarja's league. Why the boys didn't pick Simone Simons I don't know. She has the range, more experience despite her young age and is gorgeous. Fans would have taken to her instantly. Maybe she was too young (20 at the time). But Anette has grown into the role very well and fans have warmed to her.

    Tuomas has said he wants to sit down alone with Tarja and talk it out some day. I suspect that day will come after she divorces Cabulli. :)
     
  8. pyhrrus13

    pyhrrus13 Member

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    The diabetes excuse doesn't fly. Bret Michaels is a diabetic and toured his ass off with Poison for years, and still does. You said she had specific foods required on her rider. If she adheres to her diet, takes her meds when needed, gets enough rest exercise, which a good show should actually give, and doesn't drink or drug, she would be fine. It's one of those things where people have to accept it as an excuse but in reality it is a cop-out. I am diabetic myself so I know this personally.

    As for vocal abilities, people assume because Tarja sings in an operatic style, that her voice is better. This is simply the snobbery of believing that opera as classical music is superior to rock and metal. I will say again that I think Annette has a more expressive, and even more powerful voice than Tarja, who sounds like she uses falsetto most of the time. Tarja, if she could work in opera at all, would not be a star. She has a nice tone and pitch but I don't hear much power in her voice at all.

    I would agree with you that Tuomas let it go on too long, but as far as Simone, I think she'd rather stay with her own band than take a chance on stepping into the personal drama that was part of Nightwish. She might have seen it as boarding a sinking ship. AFAIK Annette didn't have a prominent band going before she joined Nightwish so you could say she had nothing to lose.
     
  9. A7

    A7 Live to Win

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    Wow, that's news to me. Never heard about her being diabetic.

    Exactly what happened here?

    Ah, but on the contrary, Simone suffers from MRSA, which is a staph infection that's very difficult to cure. Because of this, Epica toured the U.S. without her for a couple of months. Simone is back with Epica, but says that she has not completely recovered from the disease. Imagine if that happened to Nightwish had they hired her.

    I can't wait.
     
  10. A7

    A7 Live to Win

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    Music-wise, you're correct; but in her personal life, she paid the price heavily. Joining Nightwish led to her divorce and eventual loss of custody of her first son (which was reportedly the cause of her walking out in the middle of the Belo Horizonte concert). Still, she's a trooper for keeping up with the band and defying all the naysayers.
     
  11. Melisan

    Melisan Member

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    King Foo, Nightwish's management company, scored some opening dates for Maiden in Poland. It wasn't much but it was MAIDEN for crying out loud. Now, Marcello had already been pulling a stunt where KF would negotiate a deal, then he would charge in as Tarja's representative and demand like 20% more money. Most people grumbled but gave in because by 2004, Nightwish were huge in Europe.

    Well, Rod Smallwood didn't get to where he is by being stupid. He told NW to take a walk. KF had to come rushing in and say no no, the original deal applies, ignore him.

    Happy ending: when they met, Steve Harris told Tuomas he was a big Nightwish fan and had all their records. Tuomas must have felt 10 feet tall at that moment.

    Well being with NW might have sent her in a different path and she would have not been infected. I've never heard of people not recovering from MRSA. Anyway, she's touring with Epica now.
     
  12. Melisan

    Melisan Member

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    My copy of the Nightwish biography is boxed up and in storage so I can't get it out, but I know it was a real restricted diet. No gluten, no sugar, etc.

    But it varies in severity. And there is more to it than diabetes, of course. And some people are just not that tough. When I was working and traveling as a journalist and sent all over the place, I couldn't handle more than a few days on the road. I remember spending 6 days in hotels and covering events in different cities and I was falling apart by the end of the week. My first thought was "I'd never make a touring musician."

    More than 2,000 women applied for the Nightwish gig. I would not be surprised if Simone did apply. Epica is not her band, it's Mark Jansen's band, and he is no Tuomas. Take Simone out and it's a third-rate power metal band (or death metal band, given his abysmal vocals).

    And the "personal drama" was due to Tarja to begin with.
     
  13. pyhrrus13

    pyhrrus13 Member

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    Well that's very sad, truly, but if it was her desire to sing with a band then she NEEDED to so that, and if her husband realized this about her and divorced her over it, they were wrong for each other. Seems sad that she'd lose custody of her son, should be shared custody at least. I don't think that would fly over here, unless she was completely unable to care for the boy due to band commitments. But these are the things that artists and musicians sacrifice in order to have careers.
     
  14. pyhrrus13

    pyhrrus13 Member

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    Well, considering that Tarja is doing the things she told Nightwish she couldn't do due to her health, such as touring the U.S., I tend to think perhaps she was making excuses and not as fragile as she claimed. Of course medical records are private and that's one kind of excuse that can't be checked because of that. Maybe sh just happens to be healthier now. I can see why you'd sympathize though, if you had a hard time yourself.

    With Simone, what I think is not necessarily that it's "her" band as much as it's more her norm. She is German and Epica are Dutch, correct? I think their cultures and even language are closer alike than she would be with the culture and language of Finland. You kind of have to look at such factors as well as who we'd like to see musically get the job. Yeah, she may well have applied - but if she did, and DIDN'T get the gig, why do you think not?

    Interesting questions that no one will likely ever answer even if they know, out of mutual respect for everyone's gigs. Simone might not want Epica to know if she did try to get the Nightwish gig, and Tuomas might not want Annette to ever know if she wan't first choice. Trade secrets, so to speak. We'd LIKE to know, but the knowledge might cause trouble!
     
  15. Melisan

    Melisan Member

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    Tarja's touring schedule is pretty light, as I recall. Certainly nothing compared to the 2 years Nightwish did.

    I don't know if it's a matter of culture. If anything, adding a Swede to the band was a bold move. Finland was a region of Sweden and declared its independence a century ago. The Finns have more in common with the Russians than the Nordic nations. One reason they never joined NATO.

    I know Simone has said in interviews she was afraid of being seen talking with Tuomas during the singer search because of the speculation it would cause. I also know Anette was the first choice. THe guys have all said it. The choice came down to two women, Anette and a mystery woman. Their only concern was that she had a kid, but her son was old enough (about 6 at the time) that they felt she could handle being away. Was the other woman Simone, or Floor Jansen from After Forever or someone else? No one knows.

    I suspect if anything hurt Simone, other than wanting to stay with Epica (mind you, she has said Nightwish was her inspiration to start singing in the first place), was her age. She is quite young, about 24-25, and would have been around 20-21 when the search was done. The band, all in their 30s (40s in Marco's case) might have said nah, we want someone our age.
     
  16. Timewarrior2001

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    I'm not a "tarjaphile" but I personally think Nightwish sounded better with Tarja than annette.


    I just cant get away with them now, it just doesnt feel right, sound right or look right. :(
     
  17. pyhrrus13

    pyhrrus13 Member

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    Well even though Sweden and Finland are somewhat different, they also share some aspects of what we call Scandinavian culture. Closer to that than Simone being German would, perhaps. My point was more from the perspective of Simone being culturally more at home with Dutch than Finns, seeing as Dutch people are Germanic with a close related language, and the Suomi language is nothing like German at all.

    Even if she was inspired by Nightwish, it doesn't necessarily mean she would want to take the gig. What if she somehow saw it as a betrayal of Tarja? Even if she is friends with Tuomas and respects his band, it doesn't necessarily mean she would want to be in that band, for business and personal reasons.

    She herself might have thought that Nightwish was doomed without Tarja - these are a few things off the top of my head, and I haven't read any interviews about any of it. But there are reasons I can think of without even knowing much about them, let alone motives none of us know, to push the matter in either direction.

    Maybe she IS the mystery woman, it could be. But I think Annette is great in the band, and really, I like what they've done with her better than what I've heard of Tarja. Tarja's talent is undeniable, but her voice really doesn't do anything for me. Annette's voice does, I like the way she sounds and sings.

    Even if Tarja does keep her tour schedule light, still she has gone to the US and refused with Nightwish. She denied them an important music market. Perhaps she has seen some of the errors of her ways. More likely she can get the kind of money Nightwish would've gotten and can keep most of it now, paying hired musicians to play for much less than full band members would make.

    I think it is good for both camps. Each can do what they want now. But anyone who resents Annette for taking a good band job is foolish. If they are a Tarja supporter they should acknowledge that she and her husband basically forced this to happen. The open letter tells the story. Why would you let someone, even your front person, treat you that way when you don't even participate in rehearsals, much less writing, til the last minute?

    I understand illness, but as I said before, I can imagine that she uses a real illness to get away with doing the least she has to. It's a valid excuse, but I just wonder how many of those "sick days" are really her playing hooky with her husband? That is only human, too. It's not like she's the Devil, me saying that. But she can avoid most of the real work and show up to take the glory; why wouldn't she, once she saw she could do it and still maintain a music career?

    Even her husband, who reads as somewhat of a villain, may simply be putting her wishes and needs above the band's. That is not being a bad husband, though it certainly pisses off the fan base and the band. A male Yoko Ono, but remember, Lennon was with Yoko until his death. I know, May Pang, but Yoko actually set up and controlled even that.

    Sorry, I am digressing way too far in my attempts to analogize. Better stop now! :oops:
     
  18. A7

    A7 Live to Win

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    Nightwish's new album Imaginaerum isn't out until December in Europe and January next year in the rest of the world, but is it too early for it to receive any praise?

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6YhaJK8TC4&hd=1]Nightwish - "Storytime" Teaser[/ame]
     
  19. Melisan

    Melisan Member

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    Roadrunner should be smacked upside the head repeatedly for this cockeyed release schedule. It comes out at the end of November in Finland and in mid-January in the U.S. Have those numbnuts never heard of the Internet? This album is going to have five-six weeks of unchallenged and unanswered downloads. Good luck selling it after that.

    I plan on downloading it the day it's out. I'll be haunting IRC until I get it. But I will buy the disc the day it comes out. I believe in supporting the bands I like. BUt to leave a five week window in the era of iTunes is STUPID STUPID STUPID!
     
  20. BookOfThel78

    BookOfThel78 \m/ Power Metal Fan \m/

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    The US always gets albums late it sucks.
     

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