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Random theological stuff - moved from Q about God

Discussion in 'The Philosopher' started by Dak, Jun 30, 2009.

  1. krofius

    krofius Active Member

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    I'm not American so i don't give a shit about 9/11 sorry for my mistake of what i thought then. In the Qur'An, muhammed did have a physical relationship with a 9year old. Okay, let's say they aren't muslim, but still they believe they will get to paradise (which islam says you will, but not by killing yourself ofcourse) And before they die, They read verses from the Qur'an? Sounds pretty muslim too me, either way, it's Islam..Sure they aren't right in their minds, but it is Islam's fault. And if you don't think grown up people being married to a 9year old is sick, then i don't see why i should even discuss with you. EDIT: Apparently she was 6years old when they married, but it wasn't until she was 9 she started to live with Muhammed.

    QUOTE:The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

    And about men coming before women, Well isn't arabic people muslims? They are. Which means, ISLAM. Neither of this is what i've heard from ''the media'' if you think that. My opinion is that ALL religions is completely useless, and just used to frighten and have power of people. You may think otherwise, but trying to ''prove'' me things won't help, i know what i know about religion and it's peoples, and it's enough to make my opinion clear. Muhammed WAS a pedophile prophet, end of story.
     
  2. hexwind

    hexwind Creepiness Och Terrorism

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    Did you read the Qur'an? If so, give me the Surah and the verse please.
    No matter what these people believe in, still doesn't change what Qur'an says or what Islam is about. So stop using this invalid argument please.
    You listen to heavy metal.
    You are bad at maths.
    Therefore, You are not good at maths because of Heavy Metal.
    What kind of logic is this??
    They are sick people, no because of Islam, but because of what they have seen in their lives, they see their relatives and their friends dying in a brutal way each and every day, no future, no education, no money, no life !! And those idiots like Al-Quaida take advantages of their bad situations and bring them the idea that if you day as a patriot who's defending his country on his land will go to heaven, to make them blow up themselves to fit their personal agenda. So they are suffering from a psychological disorder caused by WAR and not Religion. Understood?

    Her age isn't known precisely, coz there was no historical record that proved her exact age when they married.
    From where did you quote that?

    Yes, the vast majority of Arabic people are Muslims, but the greatest Muslim population is in Indonesia, do all these cultures represent the same thing which is Islam? Are you aware of what you are talking about? do you actually believe it?

    If you have a hard time with accepting the fact that you misunderstood or had misconception about certain topic (doesn't necessarily have to be religion or anything)that's your problem.

    Signed krofius.


    I think you should read what the statement in the front page of this board, Mature and Ineffectual discussions.
     
  3. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    Obviously a Densonite, no full picture going on here
     
  4. Ice

    Ice Member

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    Most wars have been fought over land and resources.
     
  5. krofius

    krofius Active Member

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  6. krofius

    krofius Active Member

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    Excuse me in advance if you find this post immature, un-intellectual, hateful or disrespecting in any way.
    Oh so, Muhammed didn't marry a girl named Aisha which was 9 years old? (Even 6 when they married, 9years when it was consummated.)

    In what way is it an invalid argument? Ofcourse they interpret the Qur'an in a wrong way obviously, BUT the Qur'an is the reason they commit the crimes. If the Qur'an would be a book about the development of Computers, i can guarantee things like this wouldn't happen, atleast in this volume.

    What kind of logic is this??
    Well dude, you didn't even use the same logic as i did, you used something COMPLETELY different. Math has nothing to do with Heavy Metal. And why would listening to music effect my math skill?

    NO i don't UNDERSTAND, since you are trying to prove something that i don't get. without Islam, Al-Quaida wouldn't exist. Which my point is that religion is the tool.


    read my first message up there (You can just google it and i'm sure you will find that she was 9 years.)


    Did i say so? I said, that it is the muslim PEOPLE, i don't care if they are chinese, arabic, indonesians, it's the muslims that represent these things (not saying all muslims, but muslims)



    /sigh..Stop trying to defend things that's undefendable. These are not my opinions, it's facts.


    Signed krofius.


    So you mean i'm immature because i think religion sucks, that it's stupid and only does harm? If you think so, you're simply wrong. If i would call you retard, that would be immature, there's nothing immature with expressing my hatred for religion.

    Got a question for you.
    Do you think Islam is a violent religion? Don't answer Yes/No, elaborate. HINT: It's death penalty for Apostasy in Islam. A free tip: Go listen to what Richard Dawkins says about Islam, you might actually learn alot.
    Tell me something good about the religion Islam.
    I think of the Qur'an as a worse edition of the Bible, it's sad that people actually believe what's written in it too..Same thing goes with the Bible.
    If you don't agree or understand anything of what i've said, then you are just ignorant.
    Something i find funny about different religions is that all religions claims that their particular god is the one being omnipotent and the only true one.

    Something else is that religious people is always so hateful to people that don't have a religion, especially Atheists. Do you know the amount of intellectuals and scientists who through history were imprisoned, tortured, and murdered?

    Another question: Since progress cannot be attained without science and technology, how do you think we would progress in science and technology, if exactly EVERYONE in the world was Christians and read the Bible. The Bible does not support science.
     
  7. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    Holy fuck ! Where the hell did you come from ?

    You think if books of faith were not in existance all of a sudden everyone would be bright and cheery. But then wait... waffle back and forth when confronted... yet turn back around a few paragraphs later claiming to state facts

    dude you are totally fucked up, blinded by hatred and spewing bias empty bullshit, you make the freakiest of Jesus freaks look reasonable.
     
  8. Dak

    Dak mentat

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    Going to have to take this rare occasion to agree with razoredge.
     
  9. Thoth-Amon

    Thoth-Amon Hypochondriac

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    except that's false. things were living, dying and suffering for millions of years before humans came on the scene. obviously not a perfect creation.
     
  10. hexwind

    hexwind Creepiness Och Terrorism

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    You still didn't answer my question. Show where did Qur'an mention her age and their marriage.

    If Qur'an is the reason why they commit the crimes, so it's a book that spur us to do crimes right? So why didn't I blow myself up or did any crime yet? and you can notice that you contradict what you said before in other posts....
    The reason behind these crimes is NOT the Qur'an. If there were no wars in their countries, they had good life , and they followed what their religion truly says, they would never commit such horrible things.

    :erk::erk:
    This is fathomless !!!!!



    That's the point, they have nothing in common, so does the Qur'an and suicide bombers. They are completely different things. Saying "people blow themselves up because of the Qur'an" is like saying "I sucked at maths because i spent all the time listening to music (or doing any other activity), so i blame music for that".



    Just imagine all your family are perished by the same people (which i don't wish for you or anyone at all), you have no future, no money, no abode, no country and no one to defend you. what left for you in this life? You would be easily manipulate by the idea of if you die killing enemy you would go to heaven (which is wrong and not valid in any condition) but you forget that killing yourself or any innocent one is forbidden. They are mentally sick..

    Without wars and conflicts and misunderstanding, Al-Quaida wouldn't exist. Yes religion is the tool as an excuse for their filthy deeds.


    Muslim people can MISREPRESENT Islam too. So they shouldn't be a reference. The only thing that represents Islam is Qur'an and the Hadith. Period.

    If that's the way you see it, that's fine...


    If you are unable to promote your ideas without insulting or causing harms to people, and base it on proper arguments, that's a childish way of expressing yourself. I would never call someone immature cause they have a different opinion than I do.

    EDIT: (just forgot this part) :
    Hell no, Islam is not a violent religion. I think if you read what i said, you will get the details. It prohibits violence by all its forms, with anyone. Notice the terms that muslim people use in their language, Assalemo alaykom = Hey (Literally means : Peace be upon you, when you get out of a workplace, you say : Allah i'inak (God helps you).. after you drink people tells you : Bishf'a ( With health). that's what i can think of right now. I think I have explained enough about what Islam teaches.

    -Keeps you clean, before praying you have to do some washing in a specific way.
    -You don't know the value of ANY food or a single drop of water if you don't have it. By fasting, you know how bad poor people feel, what's the real value of food and water, therefore you appreciate it. Plus, fasting helps your stomach to recycle and rest.
    -Charity, a group of people can't develop as much as a group that help each other.
    -It spurs you to educate yourself and not to be an ignorant,to open your mind on different views and different cultures, and learn from them so you will progress.
    -It forbids killing innocents,oneself for no reason. Unless, they started the war, and they are invading your land. (i think i already said that 1356456132151 times here lol)
    -It forbids Muslims to badly treat anyone who has different opinions whatsoever.
    -It talks about family, mutual respect between wife and husband and kids, the way the wealth should be divided depending on everyone's needs (just an example that i can recall right now)
    -Do NEVER try to hide knowledge about science or any subject that it's worth sharing in order to progress the community, the group that you belong to, or humanity as a whole.
    that's what I can think of right now.



    It's true that Qur'an and the Bible share a lot of things, and stories,but Qur'an IS NOT a version of the Bible. You clearly have no idea about what you are talking about.

    Ok, all religions say that any belief that doesn't agree with what it says,is a wrong belief.
    You claim that I am an ignorant cause i don't agree with what you said.
    Don't you notice that you are doing the very same thing that the religions (which is something you hate)are doing???

    Can't you look at yourself for a minute please?
    People don't necessarily have to be religious to be hateful, YOU, a typical example.
    And yes, loads of intellectuals and scientists were badly treated, but by who?? Islam? Hell NO !! Islam says the contrary, educate yourself as much as you can and open your mind toward different things in different fields. So if people were/are tortured by something that i don't believe in or agree with, it's not my fault and it's something that I am not concerned about.I have loads of atheist friends, and they are one of my best friends and i am with them almost every single day and i never had a problem with them talking about religion, my ex girlfriend was an atheist too, and i loved her from all my heart,despite her religious views. And by the way, if you think that religions are a cause of hating people, don't you think the music that you are listening to does the same thing? look onto death/black/thrash metal lyrics, don't you feel that you agree with them, therefore, you hate religious people more?

    As Razoredge said, not having any religion in the world doesn't guarantee us progress or everyone would be well educated.
    I don't care if the bible doesn't support science, coz i simply don't agree with it, and if Qur'an didn't support science or enlightenment I would not agree with it either.
     
  11. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    Good job Hex for what it might be worth

    I'm a non believer and I dont like or support science. I see trillions wasted that would be better put to use elsewhere. I dont support making people that have genetic or health faults live, as a industry. I dont support space exploration. While I have pride in man for making such accomplishments I dont see its value. I dont consider what went on in society and on the planet since the industrial revolution to be "progress". Yes it appears to be progress but somehow manages to be a degeneration so all these things are hard for me to support as a whole... still it is the world I was born in.

    I have always felt that is a good point to reckon with. We were born in this world as it is today so none of this is directly our making. We have to go with it to some degree, those that do fully will benefit the most, yet die and return to the earth... all in vein
     
  12. Dak

    Dak mentat

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    I would agree. We have no business roaming around in space when we still havent figured out how to live on our own planet without raping it.
     
  13. hexwind

    hexwind Creepiness Och Terrorism

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    ^Yeah, it's the first time i hear this idea.. so true.
     
  14. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    curiosity is a natural and healthy characteristic, but the extremes have questionable merit
     
  15. krofius

    krofius Active Member

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    I clearly did. I said ''google'', if you are so eager to find out and think that i'm lying, just google it and i'm sure you will find it.





    Meh.. again you are answering things that i havent said. I NEVER said that Qur'an makes everyone reading it blow theirselves up, i said that suicide bombers, reads the Qur'an, and i said that ofcourse they misinterpret it.


    it is indeed, quoting a Metallica song, Sad But True.




    Your argument is a logical fallacy as it has nothing to do with the point. What you're saying is like saying that you are allergic to cats, because you don't eat fish. _IT_IS_NOT_VALID. My point has to do with the subject.
    I see you don't understand what i am writing, AGAIN. read what i am writing clearly damnit. Qur'an and suicide bombers have nothing in common? Yeah RIGHT! It's weird that only people reading Qur'an blow themself up, and not christian people..Maybe you see the pattern? I don't see how suicide bombers and Qur'an is two different things. They read the Qur'an, they blow themself up.




    Oh so, your saying that all suicide bombers are bankrupt,have no family left, no house & no country, no friends? If you honestly believe so.. then you are not as intelligent as i thought you were. My whole point is that suicide bombers, reads the Qur'an, misinterpreting it or not, THEY READ THE QUR'AN! You can't misinterpret the bible the same way you can interpret the Qur'An. Why do you think no one misinterprets the Bible and blows themselves up? Their has to be a foundation of something you can interpret.


    Ofcourse they wouldn't exist otherwise. But what is the reason of this conflicts and wars? hint: it has to do with religion. They are also maniacs that misinterpret the Qur'An, but again, it's only the Qur'An being interpreted so weirdly by people..That's weird.



    Ofcourse the people represent the religions. Without people = No religion.
    Why do you think Islam has such a bad reputation by non-muslims? Cause of the violence it causes.


    If it's fine why are you replying? You clearly seem to mind my opinion.



    Do you mind quoting my so called ''insults''? I can't recall them. I've used only proper arguments. Also, i've never called you immature??


    HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH nice one.
    You know what you are saying is double-moral..You say it prohibits violence, but at the same time it's the religion that causes the most violence to people. Just because you have prayers doesn't mean it's not violent. In what way does ''God Helps You'' probihibit violence? If you call me and needs help with washing the car, and i say ''I will help you'' it will not prohibit violence since it has nothing to do with violence even.


    You do that every time you've visited the bathroom.
    Yea it's weird i know the value of all food, and how the people in Africa lives and all the other food things you wrote (without reading the Qur'an)
    When you donate to breastcancer funds, you learned that from the Qur'An? I don't think so.
    That's called ''morals'' and reading books.
    In what way is that good? If someone kills your wife, that doesn't give you the right to kill the killer of your wife, then your as bad as him. Prohibiting killing, while at the same time saying it's okay, is again, double moral.
    -It forbids Muslims to badly treat anyone who has different opinions whatsoever.
    Come on dude..Then all people who isn't reading the Qur'An shouldn't respect their wives or what? You learn this from other sources. You don't need the Qur'An for it.
    -Do NEVER try to hide knowledge about science or any subject that it's worth sharing in order to progress the community, the group that you belong to, or humanity as a whole.
    that's what I can think of right now.[/quote]
    Again, you don't need the Qur'An for that.




    READ MY MESSAGE AGAIN! I said, I THINK of the Qur'An as a bad version of the Bible. I never said it WAS.


    No, what i said was that you were ignorant, for ignoring the arguments i gave you. And answering them in a totally wrong way.
    If you can't see obvious things that's wrong with religion, you are ignoring it, AKA being ignorant.


    I never said that either. Also i'm not being hateful, i'm pointing out the wrongs in Islam and Religion overall.
    CAN YOU READ MY POSTS? I can make i clear for you this time hopefully..What my post said is that RELIGIOUS people did it, I did not say it was ISLAMIC. And you have no proof that Islam didn't do it either.
    Yes ofcourse you don't need to have the same religious views to be friends lol. I just despise the religious people trying to convince and force other people that just their religion is the right one. Believe whatever you want to, but keep it for yourself.


    I get the feeling that you aren't reading my questions well enough. I asked you: How do you think we would progress in science and technology.
    You'll get rid of me for a week i'm gonna travel to Cyprus, but i hope you have replied so i can reply to you in a week or so. C'ya all & have a nice week
     
  16. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    ya...okay, so please do
     
  17. Thoth-Amon

    Thoth-Amon Hypochondriac

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    You don't like or support science? What kind of idiotic bullshit is this? You wouldn't be typing that on the fucking internet if science hadn't led to its development! Hell you'd probably be dead from some childhood disease if science hadn't invented vaccines or antibiotics... Jesus fucking Christ how ignorant can you be?
    If you don't like science why don't you run around naked with some obscure African tribe that still believes that diseases are caused by evil Witchdoctors and rain is controlled by some capricious deity? Yeah life without science is fucking GREAT!
     
  18. hexwind

    hexwind Creepiness Och Terrorism

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    @ Krofius :
    Dude, I don't want to reply almost the very same thing over and over again, I have got some stuff to do other than that. You will never change your mind no matter how many times i will explain, answer your questions, would you? So what's the point of doing it?

    That's it dude. Keep your beliefs for yourself, I didn't start promoting my beliefs and forcing them onto you or anyone else in this board, I did talk about my beliefs very few times when I see that someone is having the wrong idea about Islam. I keep my beliefs for myself, and i don't want/have the right to force it on others. And same for you dude, keep your hate for yourself, what's the point of hurting people with different point of views, did that change something? Yes it did, it's just another useless conflict added to this world. Do what you said, believe whatever you want, but keep it for yourself as you want people to do.
    It was a nice talk nonetheless. Enjoy your vacation, it's a nice place where you are going ;)
     
  19. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    So you simply ignored the rest of the post which further explained how and why I feel this way ?

    My mother died in '70 from a brain tumor, science did not help her but a hospital and doctor made alot of money. No big deal, live and let die, then the hospital and doctors would not have made a cent for nothing, which is primarily what they do, earn money on false hopes, exorbitantly so

    As for my health, never sick, again so what no big deal. Mankind did not survive the ages due to science. All science has done is eliminated natural selection. We live on a overpopulated planet. Now whos calling who ignorant.

    As for modern technology such as this internet. I got by just fine for decades without it. So whats the big deal ? Furthermore if you had absorbed the rest of that post you would not have even mentioned the internet.

    Hopefully you are not suggesting that the white race came to be only after leaving the naked African tribes and witch doctors to develope.... "science"

    Science and technology has proven to be a double edged sword. We have replaced jobs with machines. We have developed a population that requires rapid advancement in technology in order just to keep everyone employed and deceivingly productive. We have developed a great big fucking complicated mess thats is nearing impossible sustainability. One look at the employment situation and environmental issues around the globe provides the evidence.

    Your into your thing, Im into mine. The ignorance of man is always of great ponderance, ponder your own ignorance.
     
  20. BlackMetalWhiteGuy

    BlackMetalWhiteGuy Manly Man!

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    My mom had cancer a few years ago and I know two other people who had brain tumors around the same time. Now, all three of them are doing just fine. I'm sure that some doctors made a lot of money in all three situations, but this isn't a grievance against science, it's an issue with economics.
    Science has indeed eliminated a fair amount of natural selection and our population now has more genetic and congenital abnormalities than any other time in our history. However, thanks to the same science, many of those ailments which might ordinarily be crippling have been reduced to mere Inconveniences. Additionally, as medical technology continues to advance, we will soon be able to "select" for ourselves which characteristics to include or eliminate in our offspring. Consequently, we will soon have the power to eliminate genetic disorders with much greater proficiency than natural selection ever could and our children will be healthier from birth and require less medical care as they age.
    Our population is currently between 6.5 billion and 7 billion people. Most estimates state that our planet can reasonably sustain about 9 billion to 10 billion people. There are even efforts underway to provide reproductive health facilities and education to underprivileged regions. In areas where such programs have already been established, birth rates have decreased tremendously and there is evidence to suggest that if this trend continues, then the human population will probably stabilize at roughly 9.5 billion by the year 2050.

    Even currently, while we have billions of people who lack proper health care, nutrition and clean water, this is still more of a grievance against human selfishness and economics than it is with science. We already have the technology to provide these things to everyone, everywhere. However, it's a slow going process because just setting up the proper facilities everywhere at the same time isn't economically feasible.
    At a quick glance, our advancement isn't sustainable, but as I have already mentioned, efforts are underway to acheive it and trends indicate that we will acheive sustainable energy demands and a steady population within the next half a dozen or so generations.

    Most of your issues so far are economic issues though, not scientific ones. Replacing jobs with machines and computers is inconvenient for those who lose their jobs, and of course those people will feel resentful. However, the introduction of machines and computers also creates new jobs as someone has to install, maintain and update all that new technology. Also, I wonder how much of a problem unemployment will really be in the future. Sure, lots of people after the technological revolution lost their jobs and the means to support themselves, but I suspect that as computers and machines become responsible for more and more, our need to have a job to support ourselves economically will become increasingly smaller, perhaps even exponentially so.
     

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