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Discussion in 'Asgaroth' started by |ngenius, May 23, 2003.

  1. |ngenius

    |ngenius Little Grasshopper

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    I do agree with the Melonman. There are many ways of enslavement, but we don't need to go that far to find our lack of freedom (in a broad sense of the word, understanding that freedom is the state of being unrestrained). And often we don't need even that society to tie our rights down and break our freedom, it's enough to count on certain fears within our head and stop doing things when the only obstacle is yourself. That's the basic cell of the enslavement process.

    There are many restriction forms, and the collective ones (that is, the enslavement of a social layer, for instance) are just an evidence of the singularity of an apparently gregarious society which often is not that gregarious at all. To become a real homogenized community it is precise to think the same way: thinking globally and not just on yourself. Impossible? It is, if you think that it is. I guess you can breathe some freedom on certain (maybe tiny) parts of your life, so it is not impossible, imho.

    In other words: the freedom of mind is the first step towards an utopic view of a standardized freedom, in my opinion. The question here is: how? And that's a bit harder to expose here.


    |ngenius.
     
  2. FatherVic

    FatherVic MasterMelon

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    but still, even if you manage to get a higher level of mental freedom (even obviously a 100% it's impossible) you will still be bound to follow social rules or even in the most of the extremes, survival rules.

    that's part of being mortal, you're bind to some things (and no, i'm not just thinking about breeding :p ) either phsycally and mentally. Cravings attack us everyday and the more freedom you get the more cravings you get so more tied you get...

    probably a kid who earns around 50$ per month, toiling 12/15 hours a day is less free than other who lives in the first world, since that child can't possibly dream, he's not expected to do much...he will just try to fulfilled what he has be taught his life is...working and trying to help with his money. He doesn't have to send his/her kids to a good college, wear fancy clothes...he never thought of buying a record, and the most amazing of it is that he doesn't need it, he doesn't feels the crave for it.

    Obviously, that's a really crude way to see it, but it's A point of view.

    Most probably many won't agree with me, but I think that in which all we can agree is that there's just a percentage of freedom...never null freedom, never full freedom.

    fathervic (a taste of freedom)
     
  3. |ngenius

    |ngenius Little Grasshopper

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    Well, it all depends on de concept of "freedom" you're pondering about. As I pointed out, we were using the word in a wide sense, and possibly it is the right moment to give something more accurate. And I'm going to refer to an acception quite eye-catching from Michael Ende's "The Neverending Story". When being with Graógraman, Bastian shows him the sentence carved on Auryn's reverse: "Do whatever you want". Bastian asks Graograman: "This means I can do almost everything!!!", and the lion replies seriously: "No, it means you should do what you actually want to, your true will, and that's the hardest way, because there's no other easier to get lost". Get lost by losing the chain of wishes that drive you to that will, and accepting things that are easier and don't require risks and personal effort. (Haven't you read the book? Do it!!).

    I like that acception because it is more realistic than the one exposed by FatherVic above. Freedom is not shaded because you should be respectful and follow certain social rules, you can both follow these rules and accomplish with your true will and make your dreams come true. If you can't get to the Empire State Building, naked and fully covered in pink jelly, it won't make of you a frustrated human being, will it? So, what you really want to? How many of these wishes are utterly impossible? ;)

    That's why I observe satisfied how friends of mine wash away their fears of moving because of a higher goal, because of a risky dream, because of a beautiful woman. That's what I call freedom of mind, sometimes it is obvious what you must do, some others your fears are strong adversaries.


    |ngenius.
     
  4. FatherVic

    FatherVic MasterMelon

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    i think exactly that is why my point is so realistic...I obviously never tried to tie the word freedom because as you said, it is the will of each individual, thus impossible to precise. I just wanted to point out that as long as a man has the obligation to follow certain rules (and i'm not only refering to law, but also to work for a living, etc) it can't be free. Of course if one individual is sick enough to dream about working 8 hours a day as a path to cleanse his soul, then that man is free to do it...I wanted to give shape to my concept of the general idea no to start talking about people.
    As you said, people can wash away fears and fight for their dreams and achieve them...but normally never they come true without giving something in exchange...without having to choose for something. Normally it's not jumping and overcoming a fear, most of the times you also have to turn your back to other things which you also want.
    But so is life, and that's why it's not THAT nice...

    Having to accept that you can't have everything you want is having to accept that you are not free or trying to crave for the minimum...the less the better!!! but that's not exactly what we are taught from the begining and that's not how our system works... :cry:

    fv
     
  5. |ngenius

    |ngenius Little Grasshopper

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    Well, think I wasn't that clear when exposing the, let's say, "Neverending Story" concept of freedom. Using your example of that man forced to work 8 hours:

    1) Freedom: Do whatever that crosses your mind, without any restriction. (That man who's working 8 hours is not free taking the sentence above as a (wrong, imo) idea of freedom).

    2) Freedom: Do what you actually want to, follow your real will, those wishes that fulfill your life and make of it a big green garden with a shiny sun above and singing birds all around. (That man who's working 8 hours assume that this don't break his freedom, but it is the previous test to reach it. His freedom is not based on capricious and eventual wishes all the time).

    So, what? Can't you achieve your goals, select them or decide freely because of that price? Then? ;)

    A "choose or lose" game makes you less free? Can't you decide whether win the car or the apartment in Torrevieja (Alicante)? Alright, sometimes you can't depending on the circumstances, but those circumstances are external factors, when it depends on you, you're free to choose most of the times.

    By not owning everything... do you no longer decide about your life and future? I'm not rich and I'm still far of any concept of happiness, but... I can start walking from here to Piraeus if I want to. Where's my lack of freedom? On the hard consequences? But I am who ponder about them and decide anyway, hard consequences stop me and perhaps restraint me from doing certain things, but does that make me less free?

    That's why my concept of freedom is more to decide freely when I'm able to do it than do absolutely everything that cross my mind, as I pointed out through the example of the Empire State Building.

    Fernando Savater wrote once that those people who embrance the idea of an absence of freedom are people who try to avoid the freedom itself because they prefer to live predefined lives. It is too hard to assume that you can do everything, and everything depends on you, and it's easier to think that you can't do certain things. Take my case, for instance: I can do everything, I can get to Australia, join the university, study the behaviour patterns of a penguin colony, whatever!!! And what am I doing? Nothing, because I don't really know what my real will is, because I'm quite saddened and disappointed. It is easier for me to remain here and complain all the time, and harder to assume that if I don't try out those things is just because I don't want to.

    EDIT: Well, I've taken this conversation in a very serious way, but you're not forced to keep on arguing. You're free to give it away. :) And remember: I do agree that freedom is barely visible in our society, but it is not because doesn't exist, but because people don't trust on it. Is that freedom hard to achieve? Absolutely. Is it often related to many other factors? Sure.


    |ng.
     
  6. witch

    witch Cups Queen

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    @|ng: seriously.. I love u the same, even if u write a lot :lol:
     
  7. |ngenius

    |ngenius Little Grasshopper

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    - Briefly:

    A) Does freedom exist? Sure, starting from each individual wandering the world.

    B) Is it easy to reach and maintain? Not really, there's a great amount of obstacles inherently partaking of our lives, from personal fears to social pressures.

    C) But is freedom reachable at all? Yeah, is not life a process where you ought to improve? Up to a point, it is certainly reachable, regardless its difficulty.

    @Witch: Yeah, I took your love for granted, but I tend to get lost between my thoughts, as my location says. So, even when the thought mess is clearly non-intended, I do my best to explain myself. :) What about your contribution? We're expecting more people to attack to. :D


    |ng.
     
  8. FatherVic

    FatherVic MasterMelon

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    yeah, I give up!
    we're not going to agree...i just think that the
    "So what?" Is the whole key to it...and working 8 hours a day it's not based on capricious and eventual wishes all the time but on the steady way you are leaving your life...i.e. for a lifetime!

    and yeah, I can decide taking the price...but it's the thought of it...TAKING THE PRICE it's often considered as flaw in freedom...
    anyway for my part i consider this over...but thanx for the thoughts!

    fv
     
  9. |ngenius

    |ngenius Little Grasshopper

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    Alright.

    |ng.
     
    Rei Toei likes this.
  10. witch

    witch Cups Queen

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    :err: imo.. you spent a lot of your time tryin' to force me to tell you that i'm agree with your point of view.. without success :)
    we "need" to work, if we want to have a dignified life-style.. I was talking about people that don't have no choice.. this is the difference.

    You can wake up in the morning and decide to have a good breakfast, decide which colour of underwear you like most, today.. decide to go outside and buy a new pair of shoes/sunglasses/whatever

    sure, you can think that you're not free to do what u want to.. but I always consider myself lucky, cuz there are no chains around my ankles and wrists, and if tomorrow I'll decide to have a trip toward the seaside, I can do that (even if my boss is an asshole, and, out of spite, he'll decide to revenge on me)
    I'm free to move to another office, if I don't like the company where I work any longer..

    this is my point of view.. you're free to attack me again :D

    (i'll love you the same :p)
    /me
     
  11. |ngenius

    |ngenius Little Grasshopper

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    No, I don't. I do my best to start new conversations to have fun, get in touch with other minds, stir the foreigners' interest and discuss about no matter what, in order to keep the board alive. However, feel free to stop/change the direction I chose for this thread, as FatherVic did. ;)


    |ngenius.
     
  12. FatherVic

    FatherVic MasterMelon

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    well i did because I'm free to do it :p

    nah, i just have the feeling that one thing is discussing and another thing is going on circles about the same matters that are simple different point of views...once this is offered there's no point in going on!

    doncha think????

    fathervic (wee free)
     
  13. |ngenius

    |ngenius Little Grasshopper

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    Don't get offended, FatherVic, I just pointed out that you set a change on this thread and nobody forced you to go on. I understand you're, indeed, free to do it, and the rest of us mature enough to accept it. No explanation needed, my friend.


    Dani.
     
  14. FatherVic

    FatherVic MasterMelon

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    ufff...no offence...i'm...it's me!!! :rolleyes:

    fathervic (never ever)
     
  15. |ngenius

    |ngenius Little Grasshopper

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    Yes, it's you, and that's good for some of us. :)


    |ng.
     

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