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Discussion in 'F.O.H.' started by joeymusicguy, Oct 10, 2008.
The fact that you didn't enjoy that meme, doesn't mean that others didn't, but nevermind.
I've probably even done it once or twice since this thread was started.
Just ignore him Stee
You can enjoy it, and I can find it annoying. Nothing wrong there.
I know that they did this in the eighties when recording guitar solos to tape machine. The machine had two speeds, full and half speed and they recorded in the half speed, tuned the guitar down a half or a full octave and played the solo an then this way it seemed super fast. As some of you might know, this pretty much only works with regular tuning and doesn't work with rhythm guitars because the strings go pretty much all spaghetti.
I can see this is a necessary tool in some circumstances for a modern producer/engineer
However if i was doing this simply because i wasn't up to playing the part, i think i'd personally be rather ashamed of myself. I'd far prefer to have a slightly sloppy but human sounding guitar track and be able to look back and say "i can now play this tightly" than be looking back and saying "i can't believe how pathetic i was i had to cheat to get my parts tracked"
So many modern productions sound as if they're MIDI programmed, and i'm increasingly finding myself listening to more Clutch and Down. Bands that haven't had every scrap of emotion squeezed out through the recording process. Slightly OT but imagine autotune on phil anselmo......
Lol, fair enough. I'll stop now.
I just need to look at your sig to see which side you're on.
I understand a lot of guitarists have that feeling of "guilt" if they cheat, since guitar is their main instrument and you really want to feel good about it and you want to be able to play everything yourself. But for me... I don't think it matters really, I can imagine myself "cheating" by playing slower and then speeding up etc. if it benefits my music. My music is not something I play live either (someone teach me how to play 2 guitars, bass and drums all by myself at the same time please), so it wouldn't matter.
When it comes to drums though... I never want to cheat in any way. I'm super reluctant to even moving individual hits around. On my solo project from last summer, I didn't move any of the hits at all, it's all intact as I played it and I'm really happy I kept it that way.
Dunno, when I'm thinking up more techy riffs, i often record them at half a speed and then re-learn them when we're preparing the song to be played live.
It's just another tool I guess, although I don't forsee myself using it on an actual record we'll make. Besides, most of the time it sounds way to perfect and unnatural. The pick attack is very unnatural.
Maybe if you slow down only by 20% while recording it will not sound artificial.
Business is business. You're doing your job if the musicians don't, thats not your problem.
and for anyone who's wondering how to do this, its pretty simple
solo your guitar track and your click track
record the riff at half the speed you'd normally play it, against the click
(make sure you have a DI track to see when notes start and end)
make a cut at the beginning of every note
then shorten every note by half (or cut every note in half and remove the second half of each note)
slide the remaining notes "together"
if you're doing this against a grid, its pretty easy
unless you're really tight to a metronome, you'll have to go back through each cut note and slip it on time against the grid / edit
add some 10 - 20 ms left hand cross fades and you're all set!
I think the difference between studio and live performances is very similar to studio photography and cell pix. In a studio pic where I paid a lot of money to look good, the photographer better edit my pimples and skin imperfections off!!! Cell pics are fun because they are a representation of the heat of the moment. But esthetically cell pics sucks. They both are very charming but in a very different manner.
And Dragonforce sounds good in studio. But since they sold a lot of albums and did a lot of touring and are very busy, guitar training videos and etc... well they could have practiced a bit more imho. But I have no problem with cheating in studio. But when you do a world tour you better be able to play! How many thousands of people paid around 30$ to see them live? Many! But until you do a world tour have fun and be productive.
edit : And melodyne has a nifty feature where you can record half time, then click on ONE button that says "double tempo" and you are done. But the bendings and tremolo work and other finesse thingies sound smurfy. But for rhythm its nice. And the tiniest of tuning mistakes will suck much more.
edit2 : Bah, in Melodyne you can record in whatever tempo you want, open the thingy where you can click on play, select the part you want to speed up, then where there is the "click on/off" button on the thingy where you can click play there is another button that says "auto-stretch... or something with stretch"... you click on that stretching button and insert the tempo you want it to become and voila!
Play at half-speed, cut out the second half of each note and crossfade.
If you have the patience.
For clarification, I'm gonna assume Joey is doing this to the DI tracks and then reamping them. I'm sure you could make something sound passable by editing the distorted track but chopping up the DI like this and reamping it after will lead a FAR more authentic result...
old thread I guess but I'll throw this in since it hasn't been said yet...
Basically what Joey said is the way to do it... chop up the DI and squish it together. For any ProTools users you can do this a lot quicker than the method he described.
Record at half (or just slower) speed with a DI track. Use beat detective or tab to cut it up at each note. Quantize it with BD or by hand. Set the track to TICK BASED and then change the tempo back to the original speed. Since the track is tick-based, the regions will stay in their spot on the grid and the excess will be trimmed automatically. Quick crossfade and you're done... using beat detective this can literally be done just a few clicks.
I do this fairly often since no one can play anymore... a lot of times I'm not even re-amping. you can get away with this on an amp track as well, using the DI as a guide. can sound a little fake sometimes, but that's the way it is these days, and frankly it's better than having mistakes on a metal record.
I'm sorry, but the OP is talking about cheating... and in my book it ranks right in there with illegal downloading and fucking your cousin. uke:
Yeah you can throw the "OMGZ EQ? = CHEATING...VST AMP SIMS/IMPULSES=CHEATING...PRO TOOLS=CHEATING"
But at the end of the day, you still suck ass at playing guitar. Doing this hideous shit as a guitar player is absolutely the worst thing someone could do in my opinion...Playing guitar is 99% expressing yourself through a musical instrument, its fucking sacred, timeless art that has only survived because of that very principle...
What is it with guitar players nowadays? My fucking dad has been retired from AE/Guitar for over 15 years and has more soul in his left pinky fingernail than half of these fucking "ZOMG SHREDDER" kids who exercise the same scale all day getting record deals. Back then you actually had to travel and interact with others to learn new things, but yet now only a click of a mouse button away for any possible thing one could need with learning guitar, people STILL fucking wont take the time to practice and actually WANT to be a great guitar player.
Production tricks are one thing (autotune,quantizing) but just simply not playing your fucking instrument is just not tolerable for me, and yes, I dont give a fuck what color your bands money is, you better be able to play your fucking instrument before I will record it.
Why is everyone defending this concept? Yes, this is metal, but my fucking god are there PLENTY of bands out there that HAVE nailed every fucking part on their cd. Nowadays everyone and their mother thinks that because we have this amazing technology that you can shortcut your way into becoming the next "big" band.
Fuck that. I would quit music all together before I would try and be something im not by recording stupid shit that I know I couldn't play to impress little jimmys sister across the street when I let her listen to my CD. Keep the soul in music people, sorry for the rant but seriously...I would rather hear a 90bmp solo that makes me fucking shed a tear than hear Yngwie's 5,000 solos that sound the same.