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Discussion in 'The Philosopher' started by no country for old wainds, Mar 31, 2005.
Your thoughts on the whole saga?
well, I think it was the right choice. If Terri had wanted to die instead of being artificially alive, her parents should have let her die.
Her whole saga kept me thinking about Metallica's song 'One' and how Schavio was similar to the dude in the song.
My thought is, you never know when you're gonna go. She was 20-30 something when her accident happened if I recall. You better have in writing what you want done for several scenarios such as feeding tubes, vegetative state, life support etc. There's no better decision maker than your own words. Obviously you would need to have this info stored/kept somewhere whether a lawyer, sealed envelope with a spouse or something. I think it was a tragic situation that Terri was in and really have no feeling with one side or the other. I can believe the husband would know what his wife wanted (me and my wife have spoken about such things) and I can see how parents would not want the tube removed. Definitely a sad story and hopefully it all ended as Terri really wanted.
Anyone see the latest South Park episode, regarding the issue? Excellent, as ever.
After having starved to death following her family having fought amongst themselves in court and the world having discussed and pitied and degraded her for days and days, I imagine the only way to make her day even better would be a stop in Runcorn on the way up to heaven.
(Not that she knew what was going on, or cared, or will ever know, rendering what she "would have wanted" as irrelevant as how England "would have played" at the weekend if their manager wasn't such a slimy, promiscuous bastard.)
I remember watching shows about people under Anethesia and them feeling/hearing everything that was happenign during operations yet they could not repond or make any movements to alert Doctors. It was like a living Hell for them. I don't think we are in any position to say if or if not Terri could actually understand or comprehend what was going on on the inside. For all we know she could. That's the really scary part of it all....15 years worth.
If she could: Kill her, surely it would be horrible for her. Metallica's One does indeed come to mind.
If she couldn't: Kill her, it doesn't matter because she's not alive.
And that's without even delving into my anti-death-fear propaganda.
EDIT: Anyway, wasn't her cerebral cortex liquified or something? Was there really any chance at all that she could comprehend anything?
Well we (as leymen) could of course not tell whether she was sentient or not, but I belive the neurologists (or whoever did the examinations), given all this hubbub, made a pretty damn thorough check-up. It's quite different from someone being sedated and operated on by misstake
On a side note; Jeb and George have both been ranting about "choosing life" in their public speeches, but what was obviously missing was a definition of said term. Deron, how do you, as a christian, define a human life? A heap of flesh vaguely resembling a human form with a beating heart? Brain activity? Respiration?
It's of course an exremly difficult question, but very interesting.
This particular show wasn't about people being operated on by mistaken, just general operations. They had their anesthesiologists present etc. but there was just an "unknown" factor that all the monitoring, med school, experience could not equate for and in the end the person felt everything. Sometimes you get these flukes in life that you just can't explain whether you are a seasoned Doctor or not. I'm not saying Terri DID have any idea of her state of mind or what was going on around her but I am not going to realistically say she didn't either. Doctors still don't know how/why 70% of the brain acts like it does or WHAT it does. The Doctors may have been correct in that "her [insert brain part] here was crushed and that's why she is in a vegetative state..." but beyond that, maybe she WAS in there somewhere.... A lot of "what if" I know, but, well, what IF? A corny but relevant example could be; hey my licensed/schooled/experienced weatherman told me it was going to be sunny today and it's friggin RAINING! Sure all the facts/signs pointed to a sunny day, but then that unknown/rare factor arose to create friggin RAIN! Who'd a thunk it...
See, this is where you will get a lot of descension (correct word?) in the Christian community. This is almost in essence what will separate the fanatics from the "normal/everyday" Christian. I personally do not think it is my right to define what "life" is or stick my nose into someone elses business with my definition of how they should be thinking. There is the simple definition of "life" that would mean "a breathing person." So, if I am "pro life" and see some guy out there on the War field with two legs blown off, a hole through his chest and half is face gone but he is still breathing and can mutter to me, "Please, kill me..." am I am going to say to him, "Oh no buddy, I'm pro life! Let's pray and then I'll go get help!" . I would probably honor his request and kill him if I were out there. I would pray with him quickly before sure, very quickly! But I am realisitc about his situation, his state of "life". Now get me on the topic of abortion (that would be another thread) and my idea of "life" would change a little but also there would be several "if" factors and factors I just don't feel is my place to push my "thinking" onto others.
I know that when my grandpa died he had had an aneurism, and would be completely dependent on others for the rest of his life (he was 68 but exceedingly healthy; the doctor lamented that they couldn't legally use his organs for donation) and my dad knew that he would've despised that, so the plug was pulled. That's kinda why I would support the plug being pulled on Terri.
On the other hand I'm opposed to assisted suicide (which this, in my opinion, very closely resembles), especially if there's a possibility of the problem being remedied, and I'm not sure what precedent Terri's death sets for this matter.
I do understand and support doctor assisted suicide. There are many cases where the pain and the illness becomes too unbearable that life is not worth living. I can't see why chronic pain has to be prolonged so much that it becomes torturous until the end. And it's not like these death doctors are making a killing on ending people's lives, rather most of these doctors, like Jack Kevorkian, are simple people who are compassionate enough to understand someone's dying wish.
What do you all think will happen to the laws concerning this issue?
Ok, well that's pretty interesting, though just because it can't be monitored doesn't mean it's not just a (boring) enzyme which will be discovered in time. Don't get me wrong, I'm not some scientist/materialist 'extremist' desperately seeking a physical explaination for all and everything; the world would be a lot more interesting if that turned out to be something unknown to science
No of course there's a slim chance that she was aware of something, say her bowel movements (or whatever), but for me life is more than just the minimum of a non-composing body. But if a soul is brought into the equation, then I guess "she was in there", but that feels kind of pointless to start a discussion about (at least in this thread).
Then, it's not your "right" to define what a life is, but you have the right to take a life (and oppse the first commandment), to in essence kill, someone? How do you justify that? It would be more truly christian of you to save him.
There's plenty of things you tell your partner that you wouldn't necessarily tell your parents. I think her parents acted pretty stupidly throughout. And they, of course, made a lot of money out of it.
I`m not a christian but I was raised catholic and now I tend to belive that life can either be good (heaven) or bad (hell). Terri Schiavo was in a living hell. She is no longer suffering. Wouldnt it be more christian to save a soul from suffering?
I'd also like to say that the way she died was horrible.
They starved her to death.... not a way I would want to go.
when they pulled the plug on my grandpa it was a matter of keeping his heart beating and lungs working.
With Terri it was a matter of getting food.
I still think that if rehab wasn't possible then pulling the plug would've been okay, but not like that.
There's a pretty blunt dichotomy you got there; life's not as simple as good and bad. How can you possibly know that she was suffering? If her mind was a complete blank she would at least not be suffering, that's for sure. Her boyfriend was surely suffering from seeing her that way, but I don't think she was, and thus you have the question in which person's interest she was killed, her or the boyfriend's.
From a christian point of view all life has a value in itself as it is made by god etc. To stop someone from living (to kill) is, as you surely know, one of the greatest sins a man can commit. Thus you cannot judge an action by looking at it's result when trying to adopt a true christian point of view; yes she may have been suffering while alive, but none except god has the right to judge when a life is to be ended as he is the creator. It is the action that counts here, not the result, as for example when the pope declares that condoms are to be banned as it is a sin, hundreds of thousands of people will die of HIV, but it is god's will, and then a humanitarian point of view looses all relevance; god is the focal point, not the potential suffering of men.
It is not christian "to save a soul from suffering" by killing said person, that's a grave sin and vast arrogance.
She could not feel a damn thing, so in theory she wasn't "starved" to death. She didn't suffer whatsoever due to the way she died, the only difference between that and an instant, "painless" death is the amount of time it took.
Based on this, is it really so horrible?
^Yeah i'm pretty certain it was not painful for her...
I feel bad for her that it turned into such a circus. It seemed like many politicians used it for cheap publicity, and it should have been a strictly personal matter between her family and doctors. I certainly would rather not be a vegetable for 15 years, without hope of recovery, just an emotional and financial burden on my family....it seems like her parents just weren't willing to let go, but there comes a time when you have to step back and think about the situation rationally.