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Something about guitar fizziness

Discussion in 'F.O.H.' started by Diego Rugiero, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. Diego Rugiero

    Diego Rugiero Member

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    Hi guys, I would like to share something I discovered recording my guitar gear (Peavey 5150 & Marshall 1960av cab).

    I learned like everybody here, the best way to get a good guitar rhythm tone is get it right from the beginning. So I always spend a lot of time playing with mic position and amp eq. I use a SM57 in the speaker sweet spot to capture the sound.

    When all is ready to start recording, I always filter low and high frequencies (60-12000 kHz) and add Waves C4, it helps a lot indeed. I know this will be enough for some of you to sound right. Well, I never get good results using only this methods so I always sweep the spectrum to remove unwanted frequencies.

    One thing I noted is that horrible fizziness in the 1500-2000 kHz range.

    When I remove 12 db in that frequency (1800 kHz for example using a narrow shelf) I get a clear and pristine guitar sound instantly.

    That trick will kill fizziness but some richness in the mids zone will be affected too, so set your amp with enough mids before start recording.

    Maybe most of you already experimented this before. I'm not saying this will work in all scenarios, but in my case it seems the only way to get a clear distorted tone ready to cut thru the mix.
     
  2. blue_fAng

    blue_fAng Member

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    hmmm you got it right when you said that to get a good guitar tone you have to get it right from the beginning, thats how every great record is done. Taking out 12 db of a specific part of the frequency spectrum is too much and contradicts the whole thing, if you hear nastyness in whatever area then there's something wrong in the playing, room, mic position, or even weak amp tubes who knows. I dont think it's necessary to mess too much with eq after the rhythm tone except for LP that crazy fizz and HP for unnecessary sub freq... multiband compression if its reaaaaaally necessary for the mix
     
  3. Trevoire520

    Trevoire520 Member

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    It's really something that differs from rig to rig, room to room etc. Personally I find I almost always have to do some cutting in the 300-500hz area to get rid of mud and bring back clarity, think it's a room issue tbh.
     
  4. JakeAC5253

    JakeAC5253 Frozen Sun Audio

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    Bingo.

    Christ a 12dB cut? At 2k nonetheless, that's a good freq for guitars, in moderation. If I have to cut/boost any frequency more than 6dB, I spare not another minute working with the files, I go back and reamp again, because that means I fucked up. Usually I don't go more than +/- 3dB at any frequency, I consider 6 to be extreme.
     
  5. Diego Rugiero

    Diego Rugiero Member

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    Ok, I understand 12 db is too much, I'm not saying this is the correct way to get a clear tone. It seems that something is wrong in my process and in the end I find myself always removing some frequencies there, I agree with Jake best thing will be reamping again, but for some reason I can't get it without removing some db in that area. Even with a treated room like mine, I isolate the cab with Auralex panels to avoid reflections, so the room is not a problem. The guitar chain is simple LP Custom (81-85)>TS 808 (clean boost settings)>Decimator>5150. Amp settings: Gain 5, Low 7, Mid 4, High 7, Post 2, Resonance 8, Presence 7.

    Sometimes aiming the 57 a little bit off center filters some fizziness, but I lost that clear sound I'm trying to get.
     
  6. Shinozoku

    Shinozoku Senior Memory

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    Swap your pickups out. putting the 85 in the bridge.

    Or try a different positioning for your panels. Beware of standing waves.
     
  7. Diego Rugiero

    Diego Rugiero Member

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    Yes, I swaped them once, but for some reason I still prefer 81 in the bridge. I'm the only guitarist in the band and I think 85 don't cut thru the bass sound like I want, things will be different if I play with a second guitarist using a 81. In that case, I could use the 85 to balance with him.
     
  8. Max Morton

    Max Morton Member

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    Another thing you might want to consider if you like on-axis shure sm57 clarity is backing off your presence (sometimes down to zero!) and your treble (down to 5.5-6). Then taming your mids down to 2.5-3.
    I don't think it's your room in case of a directly positioned sm57 (btw, how far is your mic from the grill?). Well only if it is a really small, boomy and reflective room. 5150 has that strong honky midrange, so maybe it just does not work right tonewise with your cab.
    By the way, how about posting clips? That would help. Just capture the raw tone (sample1), then process it (sample2). Speaking of HPF and LPF, it really depends on the tuning and mix, sometimes you can go as drastic as 120hz and 8khz.
     
  9. Diego Rugiero

    Diego Rugiero Member

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    Hi Bormoleos, the mic distance is one inch. I'll keep in mind those settings next time and I'll post some samples as soon as possible.
     
  10. neptunian

    neptunian Member

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    Thanks for the tip. In my setup, I just use several surgical notches in the 3k to 8k range, which is what I associate with fizziness. The 1-2k region, though, I find cutting there makes more room for clean vocals, strings, piano, etc... more than anything.
     
  11. Firaxis

    Firaxis Member

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    Is it greenbacks in the AV? That might be where some of it is coming from.
     
  12. Diego Rugiero

    Diego Rugiero Member

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    No, it is the Vintage 30 in the AV.
     
  13. JakeAC5253

    JakeAC5253 Frozen Sun Audio

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    You do know that if a panel doesn't absorb 100% of the sound, it'll reflect back? You are essentially creating a much smaller room at any frequency not absorbed by the panels.
     
  14. parisowar

    parisowar Member

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    Low pass at 5-6 khz
     
  15. Diego Rugiero

    Diego Rugiero Member

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    Yes Jake, I know it. I took this idea from Joe Barresi (Tracking Rock DVD) and in my view it helps a lot. Joe uses foam panels to isolate the cabs.

    If I low pass at 5-6 I lost a lot of necessary high end.
     
  16. Nimvi

    Nimvi Member

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    I have also noticed this on my mixes. Not even just on my own recordings, but on pretty much anything I ever get, I have to make a small cut around that area. At first I wondered if it was my room making me think that I had to cut there, but whenever I reference my work in different places it sounds exactly like I intended.
    I don't really mind it anymore; I don't need to do anything drastic to deal with it. but it does strike me as remarkable. Does someone have any ideas why this is such a common problem?

    Ontopic: I have had far less trouble with fizzy guitars since I started tracking darker. Like was mentioned in the thread, try turning presence/treble lower from the start, and don't be afraid to try a pretty low lowpass filter. Really opens up some space for vocals and cymbals. I still usually need a sharp cut around 4kHz, but that's about it.
     
  17. Diego Rugiero

    Diego Rugiero Member

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    Thanks guys for all comments.
     
  18. ChrisTanakaCanwell

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    Thanks for sharing your discovery... I was just tracking a 6505 last week (in a well treated room) and cut about 9 db in a similar area. If it gets you the sound you're after then fuck it!
     
  19. Diego Rugiero

    Diego Rugiero Member

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    I share this: Peter Wichers settings recording Cult Of Dionysis guitars. He turned presence to zero!

    [​IMG]
     
  20. JakeAC5253

    JakeAC5253 Frozen Sun Audio

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    I don't believe that for a minute, that's probably just some supposed studio magic to throw off noobs trying to emulate tones. I own a 5150 into V30s, and I usually run the presence at 9 to get some sense of clarity. It sounds borderline muddy with presence at 7 and master vol on 3. Presence lower or master higher and it crosses the line to very muddy, even with a boost. This amp is set master vol full blast, presence zero. There is no fucked way in tittychrist a 5150 with those settings sounds good. Either there was something circuit related wrong with the amp, or the cab/room/mic was brutally fucked. I'll have to look up the album to hear what's going on, any clips to post?
     

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