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the dynamite politics thread

Discussion in 'Dark Tranquillity' started by Malaclypse, Aug 28, 2002.

  1. Humanure

    Humanure Speaking in Killing Words

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    Self-interest, my friend. There is not a human behavior (or behavior of any organism, really) that cannot be traced back in some way to self-interest. Altruism almost never makes sense biologically...



    You can thank the Green Party (and Ralph Nader) for having Bush here in the first place. Our Electoral System was designed before the advent of American political parties. As a result, third party candidates have no chance of being elected, and at best can simply be 'spoilers,' which is what Nader was in 2000...taking away votes from Gore, likely allowing Bush to take Florida. A strong 3rd party could come into play eventually, but it would have to originate at the local or state level around the country simultaneously and win a large number of seats in Congress before it had a chance to win.

    Yeah, it's all screwed up, but you have to realize that 217 years ago The American Experiment in self-government was a novel idea and expected to fail throughout the world. They had really nothing to base it on, and were rightfully leery of trusting the people with too much power.
     
  2. Dark_Jester

    Dark_Jester Unrepentant sentient

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    Ah well, America's loss is Europe's gain, maybe we can become the place with the international clout :p
     
  3. Kovenant84

    Kovenant84 T-369 days

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    <-Agreeing on a mass exodus from this godforsaken land.

    ~kov.
     
  4. Salamurhaaja

    Salamurhaaja Member

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  5. MagSec4

    MagSec4 .:..::.: :.::..:.

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    :lol:
    That's gold.
     
  6. rahvin

    rahvin keeper of the flame

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    this kind of humour lost a little of its edge since a french magazine actually did a cover the other day that said "putain, encore quatre ans", which means something like "fuck, four more years".
     
  7. Salamurhaaja

    Salamurhaaja Member

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    How about making fun of yourself and telling us why, in the
    name of all that is, would you be so stupid as to support Bush?
    I'm sure we all could use the laugh.

    Oh and no Kerry bashing either.
     
  8. Wolfman Von Jones

    Wolfman Von Jones The trouble with you

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    All I have to say on any of the issues currently being discussed is read my sig.

    Nick
     
  9. rahvin

    rahvin keeper of the flame

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    i approve.
     
  10. Kovenant84

    Kovenant84 T-369 days

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  11. hyena

    hyena counterclockwise

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    i'm not bashing anyone. here's your answer:

    1 - on the whole i'm quite conservative. i don't know if you want me to explain my motives, but to avoid turning this into a three-page rant i'll just say that it's a combination of moral values that i feel comfortable with, circumstantial beliefs and the way i was raised. where the values are concerned, i concede there is an irrational factor, because there always is in ethics: i might find something 'right' and you might find the same thing 'wrong' based on feelings alone, and then we will find more reasonable the arguments in favor of our side than those of the rivals. of course there's a rational process too, but the founding movement is very basic, at least in my opinion. the rest, the circumstantial beliefs and the environmental influence, can be explained in a clear, chronologically ordered way, but i don't think that's what you asked.

    this doesn't mean i agree with the american republican party on every single issue, nor that i agree with my country's conservative parties on every single issue. for example, i'm pro-guns, but i support the legalization of marijuana and cannabis (which makes me a gangster more than a conservative, possibly. :p ). i'm a small government fan and i support private schooling and health care; the whole idea of compassionate conservatism resonates very well with me, because i believe that people should decide for themselves as much as possible, without state interference. for this same reason, i'm against all censorship, which is normally a liberal stance.

    i feel that it's especially important to highlight that i'm not some bigoted fanatic because, as it is pretty clear from your own words, most left-wing people feel they are entitled to call someone "stupid" merely on the ground of disagreeing with them. here in italy i vote for the right-wing coalition and i guess i'd vote for the republicans in the USA, but i am not ever going to call you "stupid" because you don't support my views. i will call you "stupid" if you avocate the extermination of people of a certain race or religion, yes. but not if you vote for a legally recognized party that just happens not to be the same i vote for.

    2 - i am actually convinced, on the basis of a certain view of history and economics, that it is increasingly hard to reconcile western nations and middle eastern ones.

    the gap in beliefs, especially where the degree of desirability of democracy and/or separation of church and state and/or legitimacy of the use of violence in the political struggle is concerned, is too large to be bridged by short-term diplomatic manoeuvres. it's been builnding for about 400 years and we are not going to do anything about it with fickle agreements now.

    of course, the oil interests put in frequent contact societies that would have maybe otherwise been separated enough not to get into fights, and the magnitude of monetary flows of course prompted would-be tyrants on either side to try and formulate grand schemes. only, when a would-be tyrant comes up with ideas in the west there's public control, elections, laws to be passed before his plans can be implemented, so no matter how badly some companies egemonize some oil fields they still don't kill or enslave anyone, and recently they also try to refrain from environmental violations lest they get a bad reputation at home.

    on the other hand, pan-arab thinkers such as osama bin laden (who is not the first one in history to entertain the project of bringing muslim nations together against non-muslim ones, by the way) do not depend on electoral support, are not controlled by courts, and can actually get widespread public support by showing they are ready to use brutal means against their ideological enemy. in most of these countries, the average education level is not extremely high, so it is even easier to make an impression on the masses without needing to grant them any protection of their interest or rights. for the record, i do concur on the fact that global inequality is a factor in heightening the tension, because starving people normally fight with more passion than well-fed ones, but this doesn't mean that i believe that giving up what was hard-earned in the northwestern emisphere for the advantage of other peoples should be forced.

    so, basically, one has to fight fire with fire. the enemy exists, as far as i understand, and he's not going to be lenient, because leniency is not a part of his mindset. it's a different civilization, with beliefs that cannot be reconciled with values most westerners share, such as pluralism. look at the NGO people, they maintain that the poor middle eastern are only oppressed people who need more funds and food, and still the volunteers get kidnapped. terrorists don't care whether you're verbally on their side if they see you as a political target to intimidate an enemy nation.

    in my opinion (and it's just my opinion), a conservative administration in the USA - especially one with hawks like rumsfeld and wolfowitz in top defence slots - will fight the war with more convinction and energy, because they have a worldview that favors sharp good/evil and friend/foe distinctions over more nuanced visions of reality. this is not necessarily the best option ever. but it's the best option now. i don't like the idea that we are in for a very long war, i don't like the fact that children die, and i don't like the effects of nuclear bombs, but i'm still thinking that an extensive, escalating asymmetrical conflict is in the cards and the options are either win or get vanquished. i'm not in favor of crusades, and i'm not saying that christianity should annihilate islam: but i strongly believe that either the islamic world accepts freedom of religion and speech or the western world loses it.

    this does not mean that i think bush is the sharpest person in the universe: he's not. i don't even think that the iraq campaign was conducted in the best possible way: it wasn't. but i think that breaking the enemy front by occupying a strategically relevant area was a good idea to start with, and no, i do not care about what was said to the media and about the whole WMD story, because it would have been a lie anyway, no matter the underlying message. people in the free world with enough brain cells can reconstruct what's behind the official declarations for any event, peace or war, new railroad or demolition of a building, left-wing or right-wing.

    so that's why i support bush: not because i think kerry (or his supporters or the democrats or the left-wing politicians and voters) are dumb or warped, but because i'm conservative (which is still legal afaik) and i also think that right now we need straightshooters in order to react without second thoughts to enemies who don't share any of our basic values and who interpret civility as weakness. i don't want to be taken over by fundamentalists, because i believe they're wrong on many levels. bush once said "i'm a war president" and i think he was quite right.

    the fact that i was cracking some jokes after election day was due to wanting to rebalance the very much biased repertory of insults and aggressive opinions on the previous pages of this forum.
     
  12. t.a.j.

    t.a.j. :.::

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    So basically you believe that we, as in the "western nations" are in state of conflict with Islam, no matter what and that this conflict is one that should be fought with extreme prejudice, even warranting the use of nuclear weapons?
     
  13. Villain

    Villain Doctor BenQuillity

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    There's plenty of contradictory proof - check Shell and Nigeria, for example. Dozens of people get killed every year because of the western oil companies, even if there's no major war at hand.

    About your other points, I won't bother to argue against them as clearly our opinions and viewpoints are so far from each other that finding a ground we both could share to call it a basis for our disagreement is probably impossible in the first place. Like you said, about everything that you see as "right", I see as "wrong". I might perhaps one day post my grand scale political beliefs here, but that might take a while, as I'm currently very busy with other issues at hand.

    However, I must say that IF I considered that the actions of Bush & co were harming Islamistic movements in any way, I might look past their other horrendous deeds and support them - after all, I'm against all religions and especially against all the fundamentalist movements within them. The thing is, I believe the past four years of Bush administration strenghtened the Islamistic movements more than anything else in the past one thousand years. Saddam's Iraq was one of the biggest enemies of Islamists, as it didn't adhere to their beliefs - now Saddam is seen as some kind of martyr and militant Islamists have taken over the country. Osama & co have certainly only gained in this war this far - their support has never been as high as it is now. I fail to see how this was worth the 100 000 tortured and killed victims of the War in Iraq - unless we are looking at this from Osama's viewpoint, that is.

    But as I have said, I don't have enough time for this now.

    -Villain
     
  14. Salamurhaaja

    Salamurhaaja Member

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    @hyena
    I feel very sorry for you if you actually belief that.

    I'm not going to bother going into it anymore than that, lets just say that you
    should maybe open your narrow views a bit more and just maybe read a little
    bit more about what Bush is doing, cos he is not going to give anyone freedom.

    What he is doing right now in Iraq is quite opposite and if you think that the
    end justifies the means, well, they don't, Bush is not there to bring freedom and
    democracy to them, he is bring AMERICAN freedom (which it's not) and AMERICAN
    democracy (just another form of dictatorship) to them, if you think this is good,
    well in that case I think you should put a bullet in your brain, people like you should
    not be allowed to life.

    Yes, I'm all for killing people, just make it the right narrowminded fucks like Bush.
     
  15. Salamurhaaja

    Salamurhaaja Member

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    It's nice that someone can put my thoughts out a bit more eloquently :D
     
  16. Wolfman Von Jones

    Wolfman Von Jones The trouble with you

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    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
     
  17. Salamurhaaja

    Salamurhaaja Member

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    Yeah, laugh it up, that is why you are living in a made up
    democracy, you think you are free, but in reality you are
    one of the most 1984 countries in the world.
    So, go ahead, laugh away.
     
  18. Salamurhaaja

    Salamurhaaja Member

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    Um, now, that is not what she said, maybe you read it again
    and notice that she actually said the US _thought_ the ground
    war was going to be a piece of cake.
     
  19. Wolfman Von Jones

    Wolfman Von Jones The trouble with you

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    Touche Salamy, post cheerfully withdrawn.

    All I know is I enjoy my life most of the time. The government has'nt really fucked me over in any direct way. So yes, I will live my life and be happy, whilst you sit there and be pissed :D.

    Oh, and I love how people who have never lived in America for a decent period of time (10 years or so) tell me how much it sucks living here, and how much of shit country this is. I'll give it to you that most of our leaders are fucktards, but living here really isnt so bad, and this is coming from a person who lives in the current murder capital of the US :) .

    Nick
     
  20. Salamurhaaja

    Salamurhaaja Member

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    Haha, I'm not pissed, it just annoys me that you (as in americans) are
    letting this happen to your country, not only cos of you, but because
    it affects the whole world, europe follows your laws most of the time
    and crap like DMCA (just an example) gets used here too.

    And of course you have all the fucking nukes, I'd sleep much better
    knowing the guy in charge actually knows how to tie his shoelaces.
    (and yes, I know he's a puppet, but thats just my point, if he was
    smart, he wouldn't be falling into their laps.)
     

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