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The new chat thread - now with bitter arguing

Discussion in 'Dark Tranquillity' started by rahvin, Apr 13, 2007.

  1. Villain

    Villain Doctor BenQuillity

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    Heh, I remember having an argument about this years ago on this very forum when someone claimed the US Army had saved us Europeans from the Nazis. Of course, that claim was used as an argument to justify the US invasion of Iraq, which had just started back then.

    -Villain
     
  2. Naglfar

    Naglfar As Naglfar devours us all

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    We sure as hell helped... Britain and the USSR would have collapsed if it hadn't been for American material support before 1941, and the war would have ended much later if it wasn't for American involvement. Not only that, we also took down Japan while helping the British and Soviets hold the line in Europe...

    I think the USA, Britain and the Soviet Union/Russia can all safely say they did their part to smash the Nazis. With the Soviet Union being primarily responsible... but remember that Britain was fighting the Germans while the Russians had that ugly Molotov-Ribbentrop pact in effect, and that was essentially a proxy war between the US and Germany.
     
  3. Maxim1110

    Maxim1110 Member

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    In fact, history could have been way different. If only Hitler hadn't made exactly the same mistake as Napoleon once did...
     
  4. dada

    dada quis est tua pater?

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    The USA officially entered WW2 on Dec.8, 1941(Pearl Harbour) but starting in early 1940 FDR OK'd the US Navy to treat all Uboats as hostile. Several were destroyed.
    German attacked the Soviets June 22, 1941 precipitating official entry by the Soviets into the world war that was already in effect. The Soviets had already been as aggressive on the world stage as the Germans in attacking their neighbors. The Soviets participated with Germany in the first battles of the war by attacking Poland, 1939
    There was a time back then when Nazi Germany and the Soviets were lovey dovey.

    So if I understand correctly, in less than the 6 months between June 22 and Dec 8 1941 the Soviet Union had everything under control.
    Are you insane or just full of it? In the long run what won WW2 for the Allies was the *USA industrial complex*.
    __________________
     
  5. stizzleomnibus

    stizzleomnibus Decisively Human

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    Excellent insight, dada, but not quite complete. Bear in mind that we didn't land until June 1944. So, you are correct that the equipment support of the U.S. held the line in the U.K. However, it was another three years before we actually put troops on the mainland to fight the Nazis. So, in three years and six months, the Russians had everything under control. (This is also in response to naglfar's point about the Ruskies turning the tide after we entered the war; yes, after that, but before we landed).

    For everyone else, I don't mean to suggest that the U.S. did nothing. We were late to the party (mostly because we, like modern Europeans, were tired of you fuckers shooting at each other all the time), but we helped hold the line in the decades between now and then, ensuring that no single nation (U.S. or the U.S.S.R.) controlled the entire world. Bear in mind that we also helped rebuild your entire continent; you used to like us once upon a time. Not that I hold current U.S.-European relations to be any one person's fault.
     
  6. Naglfar

    Naglfar As Naglfar devours us all

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    Well, I didn't mean to imply that you were... implying... the U.S. did nothing. I think that up until Russia was invaded, Britain, with American help, did most of the heavy lifting. And Russia was complicit in putting Britain in danger by collaborating with the Nazis over Poland.

    HOWEVER... the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was the result over US / British / French inaction over the Spanish Civil War and then the Munich conference. It sent the signal to Hitler that no matter how far he pushed, the U.S. and Britain would not push back. So while the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was odious, it also stemmed from the cowardice of British, French and American leaders. So it's not like the Russians signed an agreement with Germany because Stalin thought Hitler was his best friend. He knew the Germans' main target was Russia, and wanted to buy time.

    But Churchill and Roosevelt had other ideas... Roosevelt was looking for a pretext to get involved, and the Japanese stupidly obliged by attacking Pearl Harbor. Then, of course, Hitler followed up by declaring war on the United States...

    Anyway, the record on all this stuff is pretty clear, I think it's more controversial when you banter about it. But I think most military historians know pretty well that the Red Army faced the brunt of the Wehrmacht (something like 75% of all of Germany's forces were concentrated against Russia). Britain and the United States went about taking down Nazi Germany by bombing the hell out of them, and then slowly carving up their periphery. It's not like the war was equally brutal for both those countries, it's just that the US didn't have to fight that war on home soil. Doesn't mean we did less, but... we fought like hell, too. We also took out Japan by ourselves, with Russia invading Machuria and the Kurile islands at the very, very end of the war (which we, of course, appreciated).
     
  7. stizzleomnibus

    stizzleomnibus Decisively Human

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    @Naglfar: I was actually raised on pacific war history. My grandfather served on the USS Honolulu.

    I was driving in my car today, listening to the radio. You know how sometimes you're in that perfect spot at the edge of two different stations, and every few feet it cuts back and forth? Every time I took my foot of the brake, it was cutting between a broadcast of a Christian sermon and Iron Maiden's "Run to the Hills."
     
  8. Defiance

    Defiance I vårens ljusa kvällar

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    From the official site:

    Thanks! - Nov 10, 2010


    Pic: Jacopo Sanvito (www.jacoposanvito.com)

    What a ride! After having spent most of the year touring other continents and laying to waste innumerable summer festivals, we finally brought the "We are the void" experience to the European club circuit.

    The whole "Where death is most alive part II" experience was amazing, and the seven weeks were filled with great shows and unforgettable moments. The idea of having a different local support band - determined by public vote - every night in mainland Europe turned out to be successful as well; we got to hear a lot of great acts and even got some tattoos courtsey of JP Mottin of El Comer Ocho.

    So we'd like to extend our most sincere thanks to everyone that took part in the shows - the awesome support acts of Insomnium, Avatar, Marionette and Omnium Gatherum, the beloved crew of Basti, Jorge, Jukka, Anders, Matti, Mikko and Jörg, all local support bands and of course all the fans that came out to the shows to give us the time of our lives.

    We've gotten some questions regarding the setlist. We shifted things around a bit to keep some variation for ourselves and for the numerous people that attended several of the shows, but these are the tracks that at some point were played.

    At the point of ignition
    The fatalist
    Damage done
    Lost to apathy
    Monochromatic stains
    The gallery
    The wonders at your feet
    Iridium
    One thought
    Zodijackyl light
    Shadow in our blood
    Focus shift
    Icipher
    Dream oblivion
    Misery's crown
    Haven
    Punish my heaven
    Final resistance
    The sun fired blanks
    ThereIn
    Terminus (where death is most alive)

    After the busiest year ever in our 21 year old existence, we're now having some rest before hitting the 70 000 tons of metal cruise in January. To conclude, here is a clip of "Misery's crown" from the tour finale in Gothenburg (which was given a triumphant 5/5 rating in our biggest newspaper Göteborgs-Posten).




    - - -

    Brilliant! I wish I could've seen them because, gosh, the video looks amazing. They've really perfected their playing on stage, and saying that the background images and lights are amazing is an understatement. I've never seen such synchronicity between the band members themselves and the band with the background images/lights. I guess Niklas did that on the road to the first gig hahaha . I like how the newspaper review says "flawless" concert. Well deserved, I'm sure!
     
    #2788 Defiance, Nov 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 19, 2015
  9. Villain

    Villain Doctor BenQuillity

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    Wow, the feeling of deja vu: it's almost like I've seen this very same "Who Beat Nazi Germany" discussion here before. ;)

    I'm not going to tackle the topic like it was 2003 again, but I'll say this much:

    Stalin demanded the Western Allies to invade France in 1942 when the overall situation on the Eastern Front was still rather even and the eventual winner unclear. Preliminary plans were made for such an operation in 1943, but in the end the British and Americans decided against it. By 1944 Stalin no longer demanded the Western Allies to invade France, for he knew he had already won the war. The Allies, of course, invaded regardless - not to defeat the Nazis, who were already on the verge of collapse in the east, but to ensure that the Soviet Union would not overrun all of Western Europe. Had there been no D-Day, the war in Europe would have ended by early 1946 at the latest with the Soviets controlling most of former Nazi territories.

    The United States did play an important role by supplying the Soviets and by assisting the British to bomb the German industry, without which the war on the only front that mattered in the big picture - the Eastern Front - could have been lost. However, the US Army contributed relatively little to the actual fighting, which was done by the Soviets, who defeated not only the vast majority of German units, but the Romanian, Hungarian and Finnish Armies, as well as some of the best Italian units.

    In the end, it can be said the average US factory worker in 1940 building trucks that were lend-leased to Soviet Union played a greater role in the defeat of Nazi Germany than Eisenhower or Patton did.

    The Chinese played a heavier role in the defeat of Imperial Japan than the US Army did in the defeat of Nazi Germany. This should bring some perspective to this topic.

    -Villain
     
  10. Naglfar

    Naglfar As Naglfar devours us all

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    I agree with everything you said, except this. It's simply historically inaccurate. I did not mean to imply that the Chinese did not hold the line against Japan and did not make a similar human sacrifice and a heroic military effort, much like the Soviet Union did in repelling and then defeating Nazi Germany. You can certainly argue the Chinese were the reason Japan did not succeed in conquering Asia while the U.S. focused on the war in Europe / Africa.

    But throughout 1941-1944 Japan overran East Asia and nearly the interior of China. The United States, and later the Soviet Union when it invaded Manchuria and destroyed the Kwantung Army, literally destroyed Japan's ability to fight. The submarine warfare the U.S. waged against Japan was probably the most brutal, effective and crippling naval blockade in human history. Japan was literally being threatened with physical annihilation when they dropped nuclear weapons on Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

    When I say the U.S. single-handedly defeated Japan, I mean that even if Japan withdrew all its forces from mainland Asia (which it essentially did in the end), it could not have defeated the United States. The same can be said of Nazi Germany against the Soviet Union. Although in that case, it's reasonable to say that without American material support and Britain's survival, it might not have turned out that way. Which is Stalin's fault, of course; if he hadn't goofed the initial defense and murdered his best marshals, that would have been a short war.
     
  11. Villain

    Villain Doctor BenQuillity

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    I fail to see how what you said (which I generally agree with) somehow invalidates my claim. What I'm saying is simply this:

    If the role of the Chinese campaign (which caused, depending on the source, approximately 1 million casualties on the Japanese before they retreated) weighed as little as 5% in the eventual outcome of the Pacific War, the contribution of the US Army (not military industry) in the defeat of the Nazi Germany was even less than that. Now, if you want to contest my claim, you must either argue that the Chinese campaign was completely insignificant (you were kind of leaning this way, but I wasn't sure), or you must put a lot of weight on the US military actions on the Western Front (which I contested above, and you seemed to agree with).

    If you say that both the Chinese campaign and the Western Front were equally insignificant in the big picture, well, I can agree with that - my use of the word heavier above was perhaps too much, and I should probably retract that. Would you agree with "The Chinese played an equally small role in the defeat of the Imperial Japan as the US Army played in the defeat of the Nazi Germany"?

    In hindsight, the Second World War was essentially two independent wars:

    - The Pacific War, fought between the United States and the Empire of Japan between 1941 and 1945 (with preceding peripheral campaigns starting as early as 1937).

    - The European War, fought between the Soviet Union and the Nazi Germany between 1941 and 1945 (with preceding peripheral campaigns starting as early as 1939).

    I'm not suggesting that the lesser fronts should be ignored, no. I'm just saying that if we are discussing "where was the war decided" or "who did the most to win the war", the answers should be obvious by now (back when the war was on there was of course far less certainty, I fully admit to relying on hindsight here).

    -Villain
     
  12. Naglfar

    Naglfar As Naglfar devours us all

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    I argued exactly what you did about the European front before you chimed in, that the Red Army defeated Hitler. We don't differ on Europe at all, as does no one who has done much reading on the Eastern front. There's no way you can look at any operational account of the German Eastern front and come out with any other conclusion. Now... the Red Army does not survive Barbarossa without American material support and British survival. Glantz and House in When Titans Clashed make this pretty clear. But they should never have been taken by surprise to begin with; in other words, you can't uncouple Soviet leadership and its behavior with its war machine. Therefore the Americans did help save the Soviet Union when the Soviet Union nearly beat itself.

    As for the Pacific War, I'm not invalidating any claim but the specific one that states that China did the most to defeat Japan. The remnants of China's infighting army could not have systematically destroyed Japan or dislodged it from coastal China anywhere in the near future if the Americans had not showed up. The US destroyed the Japanese capacity to wage war and occupied the country. Numbers here aren't qualitative. If your measure is different than that of military historians, that is, who paid the highest human cost and who caused the highest human cost, then China factors into the argument. I'm merely saying that the Chinese fought bravely, died bravely and then proceeded to fight amongst themselves as soon as American blows kept receding and then destroyed Japan's empire. It's not fair to say they contributed the most to the political objective of defeating Japan. That belongs to the United States. Their resistance certainly set the stage, but it's like arguing Britain defeated Nazi Germany by simply holding the line (even though the Chinese suffered incalculably more material, military and civilian loses).

    I'm here at 10 am still grading papers for 11:15 am, so my brain is on hyperdrive.
     
  13. Villain

    Villain Doctor BenQuillity

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    Ah, there's your misunderstanding - I never made such a claim! Please re-read my original post.

    All I said was that relatively, what the US Army did to Germany had less impact than what the Chinese did to the Japanese. That was my claim, which I thought you contested. I never implied the Chinese actually defeated the Japanese, on the contrary, I just wanted to illustrate the foolishness of the common misconception (not by you, but in the past there were some people on this very forum arguing this way) that "the US Army defeated the Nazi Germany and saved the Europe" - it would be just as factually incorrect as a claim that (nobody's making, I'm sure) "the Chinese defeated the Empire of Japan and saved the America".

    So, it seems we actually agree on all points.

    -Villain
     
  14. Naglfar

    Naglfar As Naglfar devours us all

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    WHAT A HAPPY MOMENT!!!!!!!!!!!! :))))))

    I guess I did misread, my brain sucks!

    It's hard to quantify the American contribution, because in some sense, it's Stalin's own fault Nazi Germany was in a position to invade the Soviet Union so successfully at first. The argument from the Soviets was that Spain and Munich showed (correctly, at first) that the Western democracies wouldn't stop Hitler. So I mean, I understand.

    But the U.S. was technically fighting a proxy war with Germany by keeping Britain alive before Hitler invaded the Soviet Union. And even without the declaration of war, the U.S. began feeding the Soviets when Barbarossa started. And it's not like knocking Italy out of the war in 1943 wasn't a huge help, it's not Britain and America's fault the Italians learned almost nothing from the Spanish Civil War about their own inadequacies.

    The United States was one of the deciding factors in Hitler's defeat, but the Red Army beat Hitler. It's like saying you fed your proxies and kept them alive long enough for them to survive and then join the war yourself. It's annoying that in the United States military buffs claim to know so much about the war but have no knowledge of where the war was really won (the Eastern front). A D-day invasion prior to 1944 probably would have been repelled by the Germans. If Stalin REALLY wanted those American forces ASAP, he could have had them go through Soviet territory. Funny how this was never seriously discussed. Would have been cool to have Patton at Stalingrad!
     
  15. Zach.Zhang

    Zach.Zhang Member

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    Maybe D.T. forum is the most profound one of Ultimate Metal Forums.
     
  16. Defiance

    Defiance I vårens ljusa kvällar

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    ^ No doubt about it. It's one in which there are more discussions about "profound" issues (political, cultural, social, etc.) than about the band hehe.

    Hadn't seen you in a while Zach! Hope the government hasn't caught you! By the by, do you use UltraSurf or HotSpot Shield to avoid the government filters?
     
  17. Zach.Zhang

    Zach.Zhang Member

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    Aaarrggh. Things are not like what you thought.
    How come you think I will be caught or be punished? In China, nobody will be punished for browsing tweets on Twitter or watching Youtube videos. The ISP just technically block access to some websites without telling people why.

    I'm not living in Iran, OK ?

    I didnt answer all your questions about China because I was not in a good mood. Moreover, I was busy with my job and other stuff.
    It really takes a lot of time to discuss stuff in English. I will try to answer you questions properly and explain more things about my country soon.

    I dont use them, but we have similar softwares. A huge number of Chinese people use proxy softwares to avoid the filters. Besides that, one can buy VPN sevices. VPN is legal, but it's expensive here.
     
  18. Naglfar

    Naglfar As Naglfar devours us all

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    LIAR

    YOU LIVE IN A COMMUNIST DICTATORSHIP

    In America you can get like a 5 bajillion dollar fine for downloading a Metallica song. I bet that can't happen in China. We live in a record industry dictatorship here.

    I mean, seriously, who the hell downloaded Load and Reload? They should have gone to jail just for their taste in music.
     
  19. Zach.Zhang

    Zach.Zhang Member

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  20. Zach.Zhang

    Zach.Zhang Member

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