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The new chat thread - now with bitter arguing

Discussion in 'Dark Tranquillity' started by rahvin, Apr 13, 2007.

  1. Taliesin

    Taliesin Immaturity Aside

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    Well, poland is traditionally deeply catholic and now with the ultraconservatives in power, it's gotten far over the top. It's just one of the many and increasing situations where Im all for trading in religious tolerance for a baseball bat and really beat it out of people. It's the same in places like africa or thailand, where catholics keep preventing the distribution of condoms or general sexual education from happening.. as if celibacy was an option for families who can only survive when prostitution is the only option of survival.
    It's getting more and more sickening
     
  2. plintus

    plintus Señor Member

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    Russian Orthodox Church is pushing this shit as well.
     
  3. Kovenant84

    Kovenant84 T-369 days

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    Fuck over there (not really, just more pissed about here), the only reason I'm not more removed from the Catholic church at this point is that they seem to be the only Christian group over here not pushing for all out abstinence and the removal of all formal sexual education in schools. Which, as shown recently, doesn't work. Now, I'm all for telling kids not to slut it up, but lets not delude ourselves into thinking that we can teach teenagers to totally ignore the most basic impulse, that which the survival of a species depends upon. (The instinct, not teenage sex.)

    ~kov.
     
  4. hyena

    hyena counterclockwise

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    here in italy, there is sex education in state-run middle schools (about 85 per cent of the students attend such schools). i remember that the counselor who held sex ed classes in my school was decent, although i already knew about reproduction and contraception from my mother, who has a degree in biology and went about the explanation in a pretty scientific and effective manner.

    the catholic church, while frequently intervening in debates about topics such as civil unions or gay marriage, is not, as far as i know, pushing for the abolition of sex ed. i do not know, however, if there is such a thing in catholic schools: of course the science curriculum necessitates the teaching of how human reproduction works by the time kids are about 12, but i do not think that there is any traditional sex ed in the sense of explaining what contraceptives are and how they work.

    i largely agree with kov - kids should not be encouraged to shag each other brains' out, and this is not only because of teenage pregnancies and HIV; however, they should be educated on the matter of sexuality. but i am not sure why, provided all the biological facts (even about contraception) are known and understood, sponsoring abstinence should be wrong.

    as i said above, my family gave me exhaustive scientific sex education, AND strongly suggested abstinence, or at least they did until i was about 18 or 19. i don't think that it is such a wrong model to propose to a teenager, after all.
     
  5. afz902k

    afz902k In Currents of Cobalt...

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    I studied in a Catholic elementary, middle and high-school. We were taught about reproduction, and contraception methods as well, and we were never really told not to have sex.

    They mentioned about once in religion class that sex before marriage was a sin, but they never said it was worse than stealing a cookie or three.

    Though, they were a bit stronger about the abortion thing, we even had to see some awful fetus dismemberment videos.

    BLOOD!
     
  6. Kovenant84

    Kovenant84 T-369 days

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    Which is basically how it is in the US right now, too. I went to Catholic schools up until college, and all advocated abstinence while explaining how the processes worked and about contraceptive methods. The problem I have now is that many Christian leaders over here (and again, not the Catholic church as far as I can tell) are pushing to have abstinence-only taught. Basically, it would remove the instruction on contraceptive methods. So far, it has only had the effect of exposing teenagers to risks they could have avoided had they been better informed.


    ~kov.
     
  7. afz902k

    afz902k In Currents of Cobalt...

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    Kov, doesn't your government regulate that? Here if some school wants to teach according to their own agenda, they get closed down. Simple as that.
     
  8. plintus

    plintus Señor Member

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    The best thing about religion are those farting preacher videos.

    P.S. This belongs to 2 more threads now: USA and State your religion :D
     
  9. Dark_Silence

    Dark_Silence Member

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    i never had any sex education class at school. But my parents told me about condoms and birth control pill.
     
  10. Kovenant84

    Kovenant84 T-369 days

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    Yes, I know. As the US we should be teaching the right things to our kids, right? It's bad enough when private schools do it (which don't necessarily get regulated by the government), but people are crying for it to be taught that way in public schools. As far as I know, that hasn't happened yet.

    It seems some people have forgotten the whole debate between Intelligent Design and the Theory of Evolution being taught in school science courses as two different approaches with equal scientific value and weight. Shit like that disgusts me. Believe what you will, and truth be told I wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of design in our existence, but in a science class, I'd say it's best to stick to the facts.

    ~kov.
     
  11. hyena

    hyena counterclockwise

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    i wouldn't be so hard on intelligent design. after all, we are not talking of blatant idiocies like "the earth is 6,000 years old". as a modest connoisseur of the academic publishing industry, i do know how important it is whether your topic is trendy or not, and although the untrendiness of ID is probably not the only reason why it didn't reach acedemic science journals, i am under the impression that it might have played an important role. the popularity (intending "popularity in editorial circles") argument applies to stuff nobody cares about in the field of monetary economics, so it is obviously going to apply to such a politically loaded topic.

    this said, darwinian evolution theories are not the only brand of evolutionism in existence (Lamarck anyone?), and there seems to be far too much emphasis on darwinism per se on account of, again, political motives.
     
  12. Matse

    Matse Customized individuum

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    I agree with Hyena although I think it is a lot easier to believe in Darwin since it is the theory which is closest to reallife experience and doesn't involve any superior guiding being.

    edit: the evidence for the truth of creatonism: http://www.answersingenesis.org/

    Sex edu topic:
    Here in Germany public schools (>90%) have to teach neutrally about sex, pregnancy and how to prevent it and STDs. In Bavaria we learn the basics in 6th (12/13 years old) grade and a little bit more in 9th grade (15/16), I think. It should be similar in the other states.

    I don't know how it was in the schools I went to in America but I just know that the bible class teacher of the Christian school in Las Vegas didn't get tired of mentioning how wrong it is to be gay. He was an about 30 years old fat guy who spent half of the lessons behind his laptop.
     
  13. hyena

    hyena counterclockwise

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    right, last and final instalment in the drama, also quite appropriate since we are discussing religion.

    three days after receiving my "beautiful" i-have-to-move-on email, the guy i mentioned in the past few weeks wrote me a very moving email making plans to leave everything else (ie wife job etc) behind him so as to have a shot at a new life with me. he had detailed plans, and asked me to give him an answer of sorts by next monday. i thought and thought and thought and here's what happened (note: it was not the first time that the religious argument was brought up, actually it was quite present on both sides throughout teh horrore)

    i said

    The question of second marriages is not, it seems, one of these debatable topics where the stances proposed by various churches are, to a large extent, the work of man - and I have just been reminded by Matthew 15: 1-9 that one has to be wary of the work of man. It is, much to my chagrin if such a thought is not too blasphemous, a subject on which Jesus spoke profusely, and he was pretty clear. It's there in Matthew 5: 31-32, Mark 10: 11-12, Luke 16:18: both the person who divorces their spouse and remarry, and the person's second spouse commit adultery, end of the story.

    As you will know, the exception of "unlawful marriage" is only reported in Matthew, as if it was a bit of a very last resort rather than a core point, but it is still there, which is definitely more than enough to make the idea of annulment acceptable. If Jesus mentioned this specifically, there must have been a good reason: he did not mention circumstances where the spouses didn't want to be with each other any more (I don't even know whether contemporary conceptions of marital love would have resonated with Jews of the time), nor he referred to any individual problem that might arise between the two, and if we assume that he knew what he was doing and what the consequence thousand of years down the line would be then we are forced to conclude that he didn't mean for disagreements, or differences in personality, or even disgraces such as childlessness to be a sufficient cause for divorce.

    However, he still referred to unlawful marriage, and I mentioned in a past letter how this is only one of the possible translations of "porneia", which for example was translated as "having a concubine" in the Italian Bishops' Conference edition of the Bible up to 1974. And this is, obviously, where my specific contribution has to stop: I cannot by any means know whether your marriage is "unlawful" in the sense that we discussed when debating annulment. While I know that declarations of nullity are frequently granted on grounds of depression at the time of the marriage (unsurprisingly, this happens a lot in America), you and your wife are the only two people who really know what was going on at the time.


    And then he said:

    After days of thought I am left with the overwhelming feeling that my marriage is valid as it was originally contracted, which means that any other marriage would be a second marriage, which is not a possibility. This leaves me feeling, as you put it, like sitting by the river and waiting to die, but with a feeling born from the faith that I have rediscovered through you that we will probably want to die a little less every day.

    It feels at the moment as though we have had two weeks of being battered on every front in our heads and our hearts, and that we are reaching similar conclusions, which do at least have (or seek) a divine root. For my part in causing any hurt I cannot apologise enough. The only consolation is that having thought for so long we will not be left wondering in the future.


    1. As I might have said before, the next person who mentions the fact that "people are religious because they are weak and want comfort" gets throttled, and in this specific i don't care that i should be turning the other cheek - I will just pray for forgiveness after i have smashed said person to bits

    2. Assuming that tr00 love never dies, do we have any information on how it can at least refrain from killing people? I am not really sure that this whole story can be survived (not in a mechanical sense, of course, but it might have horrendous long-term consequences), and I would like to know why and why me. I know that, going by the Bible arguments expounded above, I should just bear my cross until I figure out the reasons, but at the moment I just feel like drifting (maybe also becasue I am sick).
     
  14. Kovenant84

    Kovenant84 T-369 days

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    Hyena: I'll have to think about your last post a bit before I can formulate a coherent response. Suffice to say for now, nice quoting.

    On the topic of Intelligent Design, it's not so much the idea itself that irks me. In fact, to a certain extent, I agree with it (or at least parts of it). It's the fact that many people over here assume that it means "God created the earth in 7 days", and still want that taught as scientifically valid next to evolution. So in actuality, I have no problem with the concept, but rather with the fact that so many of my fellow countrymen are less intelligent than the chairs they sit in. (I'm sorry, but one thing that bothers me to no end is people who believe more in the religion than the beliefs that religion espouses, and especially Christians who blindly quote scripture without looking deeper at the why behind it. Hyena is not in that category, on the off chance that someone needed that clarification.)

    NF: Like a little kid waiting for presents. If I sleep at all tonight, it'll be a miracle. Or fatigue. One or the other.

    ~kov.
     
  15. hyena

    hyena counterclockwise

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    Thanks. I think that if there is a moment where I am fully convinced of this it has to be now. :p

    Anyway, I see your point. And I am under the impression that the main problem here is not religion but rather idiocy - like the priest who, at my father's funeral, insisted that "he knew a lot, he probably knew a bit too much" in an otherwise comprehensible attempt to say that earthly wisdom does not confer immortality or immunity from diseases. he still made it sound like a mafia killing, and of course i did not enjoy the stupidity in the least... but if you get irritated every time that someone spouts idiocy and is convinced that it is based on religion, you're going to be in a perennial bad mood. i am 100% with you on the fact that pseudo-religious "facts" should not influence education, tho: anyone who wants to teach that the earth was created in 7 days is just an imbecile, and has to be stopped as such. in this sense i am glad i do not live in a protestant country - at least we have the mitigating influence of an official ecclesiastical authority, eventhough in other circumstances it becomes pretty annoying.
     
  16. Taliesin

    Taliesin Immaturity Aside

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    And then you move on a few pages and take from the bible the words that may very well change your life forever? Is it god's word or is it not? Or is it only god's word in the passages that seem less.. outdated?
    If you dont believe that the earth was created in 7 days like the bible says, what keeps you from taking other parts less seriously? What makes you believe in the bible at all? How can the bible lose all its credibility in one part and remain the highest moral guidance in another? It just keeps puzzling me
     
  17. hyena

    hyena counterclockwise

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    i am by no means an expert on exegesis, but i guess that i am under no obligation of believing what is never referred to as an article of faith. it's not like either the Jewish prophets or Jesus or Paul etc ever mentioned that people were bad in the eyes of God if they did not think that the world was created in 7 days, or that at the end of the world there will actually be seven-headed dragons. there is no source internal to the bible which forces me to believe that the tale of creation is anything other than allegory (while, on the contrary, i am asked to believe resurrection as historical narration).

    however, i do see how tough the distinction between historical accident and proper truth is, in cases that have nothing to do with talking snakes or other mythical creatures. it's actually one of the most difficult exercises possible, and one - if a believer - can merely ask to be illuminated on the matter.

    it's also funny how i am becoming the resident theologian as if i were 100% sure of everything rather than continuously debating whether the hundredfold here below promise in the Gospels makes any sense or not.... plus a number of other things. :erk:
     
  18. Kovenant84

    Kovenant84 T-369 days

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    Well, my high school education pushed me a good deal into looking behind the passages (as well as seriously injuring my faith - an unrelated course, of course), having to do an exegesis for a different passage each week in my second year.

    For the most part, Taliesin, your point is exactly what I was railing against earlier. (And Hyena, I know it's not the religion's fault. I just hate seeing it used such.) I have no qualms with you, though, as you do not claim to know what the passages really mean - it's the people that do, and insist on declaring all of the bible as factual, when it's quite obvious that a good portion of it is just good old fashioned storytelling, designed to inspire the best in people. (Results may vary.) Hell, the bible has two creation stories. That in and of itself is usually enough to clue people in that maybe everything in there isn't word-for-word historically accurate, but unfortunately I live in a country where that doesn't always hold true. Hyena makes a good point. Basically, part of having faith in something should involve knowing where that something comes from, and what it really means - and while interpretations of some lines can be vague, or easily debated, the difference between some of the more 'realistic' passages, such as Jesus' parables, and those of a more fantastic bent, i.e. Revelations, or people fighting angels, etc., should be readily apparent.

    In short (for those ignoring the big block o' text), Hyena isn't trying to simply invalidate some passages just because she doesn't agree with them, she's simply pointing out that there are a good number of passages that are not designed to be taken at face value. And my only contention is that there are some people, who in the face of facts and common sense, insist that they should.

    ~kov.
     
  19. hyena

    hyena counterclockwise

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    Absolutely right there - if I had to invalidate passages for that reason, I would probably start from the ones that are making my life horrible, rather than focus on the timing of creation or, as you say, "people fighting with angels" (for some reason the image made me laugh, but i wouldn't know why, i am more unbalanced by the minute)
     
  20. Kovenant84

    Kovenant84 T-369 days

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    Manowar?

    ~kov.
     

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