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The Official Good Television Thread

Discussion in 'GMD Social Forum' started by Satanstoenail, May 10, 2008.

  1. no country for old wainds

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    hard to recognise him, but it’s the same actor who played the rapey guy in claire denis’ high life.
     
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  2. Vegard Pompey

    Vegard Pompey ALLY TO GOOD, NIGHTMARE TO YOU

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    Did you click my spoilers because you've seen HotD or because you just don't care? If the former, I'd love to hear your thoughts; if the latter, you should check it out I think you'd like it.
     
  3. no country for old wainds

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    i've only seen clips. i should probably finish GoT first lol
     
  4. Vegard Pompey

    Vegard Pompey ALLY TO GOOD, NIGHTMARE TO YOU

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    Watching GoT beforehand is extremely optional.
     
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  5. Einherjar86

    Einherjar86 Active Member

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    holy shit. Well, that tracks, lol.
     
  6. Serjeant Grumbles

    Serjeant Grumbles MC Ronald

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    If you've gotten to season 4 or later, you're good.
     
  7. CiG

    CiG "God is a Lawnmower"

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    I'm on episode 8 so I can't click your spoilers, but so far my biggest issue is that I found none of the characters to be interesting. It feels like I'm watching a show that looks nice and flirts with being exciting yet I have zero investment in anything going on. Although in the last couple episodes I've felt some interest in Alicent Hightower and Rhaenyra Targaryen's children.

    Not sure I agree that HotD is doing a better job than GoT did depicting the "villains" of the series as more or less broken, afraid and/or in impossible situations. Especially if your examples of the opposite are Joffrey and Ramsay who had their own moments of vulnerability or insight into why they're so evil.

    The time skipping hasn't bothered me whatsoever though. Speaking of changes the writers have made to source material, does making Rhaenyra Targaryen's husband black speak positively to this supposed philosophy they have that is better than the frat boy GoT writers?

    As much as I try to ignore it, I just can't help but feel like it's retarded to have Rhaenyra Targaryen marry a black gay prince while "secretly" having children with a white knight. Maybe that's how it was in the source material and I just don't know what I'm talking about, but the whole set up feels like the cheapest trash imaginable. She has white kids with dark hair running around.

    I get the vibe that, like you say, this is all a patient set-up for a more interesting second season.
     
  8. Vegard Pompey

    Vegard Pompey ALLY TO GOOD, NIGHTMARE TO YOU

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    I'm not sure what your issue with this is? It seems to me that it's an "emperor's new clothes" situation where everyone knows the children are bastards but no one wants to explicitly make the accusation against the presumptive next queen.
     
  9. CiG

    CiG "God is a Lawnmower"

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    I get that, but the very obvious nature of the deceit makes it seem really fucking dumb. Maybe it's just me. I think it would've made for something better if her husband weren't black, so the only evidence of a deceit were a lack of white hair, instead of the kids just literally having the wrong skin colour.
     
  10. Einherjar86

    Einherjar86 Active Member

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    For what it's worth, I don't think the show is all that intellectual about royal legitimacy but it does provide some context for the absurdity, which in part stems from aristocratic royalty simply viewing themselves as untouchable, so to speak. Rhaenyra surely knows that everyone knows her children are illegitimate; but she also knows people would be taking a big risk to voice such things aloud. It's almost like watching a play within a play, if we imagine the entire royal succession tragedy to be a kind of farce within the frame of the story. In other words, the show transposes dramatic irony from viewers onto characters. Surely all the members of the court and citizens of the seven kingdoms know they're watching a farce but they act as if they don't. The obviousness of the farce makes legitimacy the plot's central concern, including whether it's legitimate to name a woman as heir to the throne, and hence whether legitimacy can pass through the queen.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but does the show ever mention skin color explicitly? I can't recall it ever doing so. If that's the case, then race (at least as defined by the historical conditions that produce modern racism in our lived reality) doesn't actually exist in the show. That is, characters within the show don't perceive skin color as a marker bound up with politics, social identity, and science in a way that establishes genealogical provenance. Obviously the show writers still abide by this logic, since white characters have white children and black characters have black children (and if I recall, there is a suggested acknowledgement of skin color when one of Rhaenyra's children is born, is white, and someone tells her husband, the gay prince, "better luck next time," or something like that); but the significance of skin color seems to be subtracted from the sociopolitical calculus. We can debate whether that's an effective strategy or not (clearly there's a social justice politics attached to it), but I'd venture the show asks us to downplay the role of race as defined by skin color.
     
  11. CiG

    CiG "God is a Lawnmower"

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    There's also the part where the king exclaims "he has his father's nose" upon holding Rhaenyra's newborn. It's a scene ripe with almost comic awkwardness that makes it all feel a bit too much like Soap of the Dragon. Is Ronn Moss going to make an appearance at some point?

    I can see the logic in yours and Vegard's defense of this element, and to a degree I agree it functions fine enough, but knowing that the writers (via an interview I read) learned that George R.R. Martin had originally considered making House Velaryon black, and took that opportunity to insert more diversity into the cast cheapens the whole thing for me. It's a shoehorn being retroactively given more artistic credibility than it deserves.

    At least with GoT the question of whether Robert Baratheon's children with Cersei Lannister were actually his or Jaime's bastards, and what that would imply about their rights to rule, felt well-written. It wasn't obvious enough for anybody to voice but definitely enough to think it. Also the threat of voicing it was tangible; Cersei, Joffrey, Tywin, all individuals we believe would silence such claims violently.

    Nothing so far has been established in Soap of the Dragons that pointing out the very fucking obvious deceit will see you violently oppressed. The king isn't a tyrant, and on top of that by the time he makes threats he's a sick old wimp. Furthermore the queen would probably side with you. The show has done fuck all to establish that a "emperor's new clothes" scenario should even be taking place.

    Also to the race thing; isn't Valyrian a race? Natives to the Valyrian peninsula? Yet another discrepency with the source material there.
     
  12. Vegard Pompey

    Vegard Pompey ALLY TO GOOD, NIGHTMARE TO YOU

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    I think the in-universe explanation for the Velaryons' skin color is supposed to be that, being a seafaring house, they've traveled much more and therefore their bloodline also incorporates ethnicities from distant parts of the world. Which tbf is probably just a thin justification for politically motivated diversity casting but it doesn't bother me. I like all the actors they cast to play Velaryons, and I find their presence in the setting less distracting than the mixed-race everythings in Rings of Power.

    It goes there before the season is over.
     
  13. CiG

    CiG "God is a Lawnmower"

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    House Velaryon easily has some of the coolest characters so far, my issue isn't with the characters or the actors. Corlys rules. But this might be the worst example of casting at the expense of the story that I have ever seen.

    I just saw the scene where Corlys Velaryon's brother is making his case that he should take the Driftmark throne, and Rhaenyra Targaryen cuts him off to argue that if he actually cared about making sure Velaryon blood continues to rule in Driftmark, he wouldn't be undermining his very clearly not related to him white nephew's claim. I fucking lol'd.

    This is just as bad as the black beardless dwarven woman in Rings of Power.

    Edit: Scratch that, at least she doesn't impact the story in any way. All the mixed race stuff in Rings of Power is purely aesthetic. This House Velaryon shit actually hurts the plot.
     
    #5853 CiG, Oct 30, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2022
  14. CiG

    CiG "God is a Lawnmower"

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    R.I.P. based black man. :lol:
     
  15. Einherjar86

    Einherjar86 Active Member

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    Yes, to clarify--I didn't mean to suggest that race doesn't exist in the show but that race as defined by our parameters (i.e. skin tone) seems to have less bearing (if any) in the world of HoD.

    I think all your reservations about the show are fair. I've become increasingly disillusioned with GRRM over the years and so, as I mentioned earlier, set my expectations pretty low. That probably also speaks to my willingness to ignore certain decisions that might irk me in a show I'm more invested in. Defending HoD isn't a hill I'm prepared to die on, lol. It was just an entertaining bit a television for a couple months.

    Right now, I'm more invested in Andor. I also just started The Boys, which based on recs from friends and what I've read here, I'm psyched about.
     
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  16. Krow

    Krow Garbage Connoisseur

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    HotD has turned fairly soapy to me in a bad way. I could watch the final episodes any time but sadly I don’t want to.

    And yeah I agree the whole thing about the bastard children is soo ridiculous it comes to the point of absurdity.

    Rings of Power’s worst sin is that it’s boring
     
  17. TechnicalBarbarity

    TechnicalBarbarity -TheNightsBane-

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    Yeah same here. One of my buddies just started watching with HotD and i was telling him this is pretty much a bad GoT soap opera.
     
  18. CiG

    CiG "God is a Lawnmower"

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    I actually totally forgot Andor came out, so cheers for that.

    I watched the season finale of The Rings of Power last night. Is the tall stranger supposed to be fucking
    Gandalf!?
     
  19. no country for old wainds

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    they're definitely trying to make people wonder about it, but i don't think so. he shouldn't even be here yet, right? i believe the lore is that before saruman/gandalf/radagast there were two other istari wizards called the 'blue wizards' and they arrived earlier and played more of a role in the current happenings, so i'd assume he's one of those. in which case maybe there'll be a second one we'll encounter as well.
     
  20. CiG

    CiG "God is a Lawnmower"

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    Yeah Gandalf doesn't arrive until the third age, but that "follow your nose" line and the fact they're pairing him up with the Harfoots is pretty god damn on the nose (lol). He's also dressed in grey.

    If he's actually one of the blue wizards that's just as strange, especially because they specifically don't own the rights to anything that features those two characters. It's why Peter Jackson had Gandalf conveniently forget their names in the trilogy lmao.

    My theory the whole time was that Sauron separated out his powers into a manform so that he could mingle with men and elves without being detected, and that's why the tall stranger had to re-learn so much and had no control over his powers, and that this would all culminate in a scene where Sauron reclaims his powers and this would be a sad moment because the audience had grown to like the stranger etc etc. Guess fucking not. :lol:

    Also in the lore, Gandalf has never visited Rhûn.
     

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