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Discussion in 'GMD Social Forum' started by TechnicalBarbarity, Feb 20, 2019.
Trans men competing against women is where this discussion started. Your dispute is with trans women competing as women
It would largely depend, again, on when they transition. If they're on puberty blockers and then T at the outset of when puberty would normally start, they're going to end up with physiologies in the normal male range. I think it's likely that, given the population math, that very few would end up being top level competitors. Unless they were socialized as and competing with boys from a young age, I think they'd be at a significant competitive disadvantage due to the much more developed nature of the industry of boy's athletics (and the much better coaching and instruction that provides), but they wouldn't be physically overwhelmed.
I disagree for the reasons I outlined previously, but I do think we have very little real and reliable information to work on. This is partly due to this being such a recent phenomenon, and partly due to the fact that trans people have never been considered important enough to be targeted for the kind of in depth research that would actually be illuminating (anecdotally, I had to sign 25 pages of waivers acknowledging that I understood and accepted the risks before starting HRT, and most of those waivers were for "fuck if we know what happens," basically). For that matter, cisgender women are substantially underrepresented in the research as well. I am entirely open to changing my mind if evidence from research and the results of actual competition warrants it.
For what it's worth, I don't think there would be any point in my own transition where I'd feel comfortable engaging in formal athletic competition with cis women in most sports. Some of that is definitely just an artifact of my socialization, for sure, but it would feel like cheating to me.
Ghost peaked with their ABBA cover.
Call it even, in the 5 years since I've been here you never said much I thought was interesting or fuel for conversation. Only thing I even remember about you is that gay as fuck Elven avi you had for ages and that you played baseball.
My dispute is with men on HRT competing against women, I agree. Not sure why you recapped.
Ignorant as fuck. What reality do you live in?
Not sure what this has to do with men competing against women. It should never happen, except in explicitly unisex situations. Don't care what you cut off, how much shit you cram into your system, or flush out of your system, or whatever.
my turn for some copy pasta ....
A prominent Toronto psychiatrist has severely criticized the assumptions underlying what has been dubbed by critics as the Canadian federal government's "bathroom bill," that is, Bill C-279, a private member’s bill that would afford special protection to so-called "transgender" men and women.
Dr. Joseph Berger has issued a statement saying that from a medical and scientific perspective there is no such thing as a "transgendered" person, and that terms such as “gender expression” and “gender identity" used in the bill are at the very least ambiguous, and are more an emotional appeal than a statement of scientific fact.
Berger, who is a consulting psychiatrist in Toronto and whose list of credentials establishes him as an expert in the field of mental illness, stated that people who identify themselves as "transgendered" are mentally ill or simply unhappy, and pointed out that hormone therapy and surgery are not appropriate treatments for psychosis or unhappiness.
"From a scientific perspective, let me clarify what ‘transgendered’ actually means," Dr. Berger said, adding, "I am speaking now about the scientific perspective – and not any political lobbying position that may be proposed by any group, medical or non-medical."
"‘Transgendered’ are people who claim that they really are or wish to be people of the sex opposite to which they were born, or to which their chromosomal configuration attests," Dr. Berger stated.
"Some times, some of these people have claimed that they are ‘a woman trapped in a man’s body’ or alternatively ‘a man trapped in a woman’s body’."
"The medical treatment of delusions, psychosis or emotional happiness is not surgery," Dr. Berger stated.
"On the other hand," Dr. Berger continued, "if these people are asked to clarify exactly what they believe, that is to say do they truly believe whichever of those above propositions applies to them and they say ‘no’, then they know that such a proposition is not true, but that they ‘feel’ it, then what we are talking about scientifically, is just unhappiness, and that unhappiness is being accompanied by a wish – that leads some people into taking hormones that predominate in the other sex, and even having cosmetic surgery designed to make them ‘appear’ as if they are a person of the opposite sex."
He explained that cosmetic surgery will not change the chromosomes of a human being in that it will not make a man become a woman, capable of menstruating, ovulating, and having children, nor will it make a woman into a man, capable of generating sperm that can unite with an egg or ovum from a woman and fertilize that egg to produce a human child.
Moreover, Dr. Berger stated that the arguments put forward by those advocating for special rights for gender confused people have no scientific value and are subjective and emotional appeals with no objective scientific basis.
"I have read the brief put forward by those advocating special rights, and I find nothing of scientific value in it," Dr. Berger said in his statement. "Words and phrases, such as 'the inner space,' are used that have no objective scientific basis."
"These are the scientific facts," Dr. Berger said. "There seems to me to be no medical or scientific reason to grant any special rights or considerations to people who are unhappy with the sex they were born into, or to people who wish to dress in the clothes of the opposite sex."
"The so-called ‘confusion’ about their sexuality that a teenager or adult has is purely psychological. As a psychiatrist, I see no reason for people who identify themselves in these ways to have any rights or privileges different from everyone else in Canada," he concluded.
I was confused because you were talking about trans men (i.e. FtM) competing against women, when your complaint seemed to be (and was) about trans women competing as women.
The only reality we have access to. A trans man who transitions at the onset of puberty will experience an essentially male puberty and end up with a male physiology. If they've had bottom surgery, you wouldn't know they were trans unless they told you. The same is true of trans women who medically transition at the outset of puberty. The physical advantages that men have over women are product of testosterone during puberty. They are secondary sex characteristics. Children don't have them.
If they don't have an overwhelming competitive advantage, there's no reason that trans people shouldn't be allowed to compete as their lived gender after HRT. The evidence we have suggests that there is no advantage of that magnitude, but the evidence is very limited at present, so it's certainly more than possible that new evidence will emerge that would call that conclusion into question.
Shit, I hope Matt didn't miss his plane!
he forgot his bag of dildos at the airport and had to turn back around.
Wow, gay people really have big appendages.
science and reality are not on your side ....
And while im at it i'll tag one of the other cross dressers we have over here.... @Matt
TB, Joseph Berger is a well-known shill for and profiteer off a discredited therapy modality called "gender reparative therapy" (essentially "conversion therapy," but targeting trans people rather than gays and lesbians). WPATH, the professional organization for transgender health specialists, which sets the standards of care for trans healthcare, considers reparative therapy to be both ineffectual and unethical. Dr. Berger, on the other hand, makes his living promising parents that he can turn their trans kids into good, gender conforming boys and girls (using electroshock treatment and punishment, essentially). He is basically the equivalent of Andrew Wakefield, the man behind the now infamous (and since retracted) Lancet article that blamed autism on thimerasol in the MMR vaccine and kicked off the anti-vax movement. He is a quack with a financial axe to grind, and he makes his money torturing children.
"HES A SHILL BECAUSE HE'S POINTING OUT FACTS" whatever you say Charlie. That is only one out of COUNTLESS docs and scientists i can link you to that will tell you the exact same thing. That what you're claiming has zero basis in reality.
Btw maybe the guy can fix whatever mental issues you have. Give him a shot. He might just electro-shock you right back into reality
and btw there is no such thing "trans kids". Parents that encourage their kids to start dressing, talking and acting like the opposite gender should have their children taken away and should be jailed for child abuse. And lmao off at you replying to me with "bububut the professional organization of tranny health specialists say" as if something coming from those kinds of deranged individuals would mean anything to me.
Don't think that's true, though obviously puberty widens the differences between males and females, it's certainly not the case that prepubescent males and females are essentially equal (which is what you seem to be implying).
The physical fitness assessment employed sets of aerobic fitness, strength, flexibility, speed, agility, and balance. The boys presented higher values in all selected tests, except tests of balance and flexibility, in which girls scored better. Gender differences in the physical fitness were greatest in the explosive strength of upper and lower limbs, although with a medium-size effect of gender, and smaller in the abdominal and upper limbs muscular endurance, and trunk extensor strength and flexibility.
Given that athletic traits are improved by use, I'm not sure you can separate this from the effects of socialization. As a society, we pretty aggressively funnel boys into sports from an early age while girls receive much less of a push in that direction, or, in many cases are actively discouraged from participating. When girls are encouraged in athletic endeavors, these are often 'balance' sports like cheerleading and gymnastics, where boys go into football, basketball, soccer etc., sports that encourage the development of explosive athletic traits. Even in unstructured play, we see boys encouraged and pushed into rambunctious and physical forms of play, while girls face the expectation that their play will be in a quieter, more reserved and more properly "feminine" mold. This is a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.
I would be very interested to see the results of a comparison of cohorts of girls and boys with similar early histories of athletic participation, to filter out some of those social effects.
This could only be said by someone with little to no experience with children, or someone so ideologically biased that they literally ignore lived reality.
I dunno, sounds like you're describing yourself.
I'm not. If you think boys are more rambunctious because they're pushed and encouraged to be so, you just straight up don't know shit about kids.
Kids are rambunctious because they're kids. They got all that energy and need to apply it. I know there's a lot more to it than that, but simply put that kids are pushed into being that way because their gender or whatever is ridiculous.
Boys are more rambunctious is the point, and naturally so.
Oh, almost forgot...