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Theory on Guitar

Discussion in 'Musicians Corner' started by Mystique1721, May 2, 2007.

  1. <-Warheart->

    <-Warheart-> † Fuck You Very Much †

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    If you played the Lydian mode, you'd probably want to play it in F, so then all the notes would be diatonic to the key and chord progression.

    Key of C: I IV V progression = C F G.

    F LYdian = F G A B C D E F

    C = CEG
    F = FAC
    G = GBD

    It might sound a bit odd if you stop for too long on the B note (#4) over the F chord because you've got an A and a C in there which are both either side of that note but if you're just using it as a passing tone in a long scale run or melody, then it'll sound fine.
     
  2. Mystique1721

    Mystique1721 bass solo, take one

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    I see....so basically if you want to play a mode over a chord progression, you have to find the mode that matches the key signature of the chord progression....b/c a chord progression in C major has different notes than the C lydian mode....


    Damn, I think they should work on the naming methods of these modes...it seems to make it more complicated than it really is.
     
  3. Meedleyx10

    Meedleyx10 Member

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    It gets a lot easier once you start really getting into chord construction and how to read chord symbols. When you're getting started a lot of it is just figuring out, for example, what something like F#7(b9b13) means and how it translates in terms of scale choice. Once you get to that point, it's just a matter of knowing the names.

    There are a couple ways about this, and most of it will be dictated by context, what style you are playing, etc. If you were heart-set on using a Lydian sound throughout, you could always play C lydian over the I chord, then change to F lydian for the IV chord, then G lydian for the V chord. It's a little harder to "sell", but it does give you a lydian sound over each chord. That can be done well, but also has a potential to sound very forced/cut-and-pasted if you aren't careful to transition smoothly.

    Another option is to just play C major (ionian) over the whole thing. That would sound just fine, but you would want to make sure you're mindful of chord tones and not just playing over each chord as though it were a "C". This is your most feasible and easily executed option. Playing C Ionian over the whole thing produces C Ionian over the I chord, F Lydian over the IV chord, and G Mixolydian over the V chord. The next step in that process would be to THINK in terms of C Ionian for the C, F lyidan for the F, and G mixolydian for the G (which is important because you'll be able to emphasize the chord tones and things will sound a lot more coherent in general). Just make sure you're playing through the chord changes and not over them (if that makes any sense). It's nothing too difficult to pull off, but sounds the best in most cases.

    The only issue with Warheart's advice to play F lydian over the whole thing is that (just like with playing C Ionian over the whole thing), it will only sound like F lydian over the F chord. Over the C it will still sound like C major and over the G it will still sound like G mixolyidan. In fact, playing F lydian over the whole thing functions EXACTLY the same as playing C Ionian over the whole thing. I would argue, however, that if you get the idea of playing in F lydian over the whole thing in your head you'll have a harder time making it sound good because you'll be thinking in relation to "F" and not "C".

    Then there's the approach you mentioned of playing C lydian over the whole thing and just avoiding certain notes that clash over certain chords. The F# over the F chord would be the major one to avoid. As far as playing mixolydian goes, you'd probably be okay. Having the Bb over the G will give a bluesier sound over that chord, which is cool if that's what you're going for, but there's other situations where that's exactly what you don't want. Going back to blues, most twelve bar blues forms have the I, IV, and V chords all as dominant 7ths (which has a major 3rd) and most guys will play the blues scale all over that, which sounds just fine. A perfect example of how using your ears and ignoring what is theoretically correct can yield pleasing results:)

    As always, my pleasure!:headbang:
     
  4. SyXified

    SyXified Member

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    Meedley - you've done a beautiful job explaining some really tricky concepts regarding modes. That one key problem where people will think they are playing A Dorian and you have to reveal that because of the way they are using tensions they are just playing in G Major with a different fingering pervades so many guitarists. Because modes are not used too frequently in popular music, it's hard to 'hear' in modes. If you are playing A Dorian, you need to start to hear the resolution as A, and not G (hearing in G major). This yields some unfamiliar tensions. If I recall correctly these were a few of the examples of actual mode use in popular music:

    Dorian: So What by Miles Davis
    Phrygian: Sails of Charon by The Scorpions
    Lydian: (parts of) White Rabbit by Jefferson Airplane (and a lot of John Williams)
    Locrian: Detachable Penis... by whoever does that ridiculous song

    A ton of the confusion comes from the fact that the various fingerings of any given major scale HAPPEN to take the shapes of the modes. The second fingering of G major happens to look like A Dorian in root position. Similarly, the second fingering of D Dorian happens to look like B Phrygian. You have to think about how when you play in E minor you are technically in the 6th fingering of G Major, BUT since we are all well attuned to hearing in minor, we feel the tension resolve to E and not G. This is the same attitude you should learn to take when purposely playing in a 'mode'.

    To address a question about the use of secondary dominants to change keys mentioned earlier, my personal preference when you want to be subtle is to use a pivot chord which is diatonic (or largely diatonic) to your current key to pivot off to a new key for which the secondary dominant is relevant as well. But using those suckers in metal can be challenging, usually when I knowingly use a secondary dominant to change keys it is in a far more major or at least 'bright' sounding context.
     
  5. progmetaldan

    progmetaldan Member

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    For this reason it is best to learn modes competely separate from guitar, and then apply them to the guitar AFTER you have mastered the theory of them... Guitar is a bad one because you can just follow patterns, much easier to grasp when learned on another instrument...
     
  6. PoisonSeed

    PoisonSeed Grin

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    True.
     
  7. anacrucix

    anacrucix aka Shredcaptain Matt

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    doesnt have to, you just have to avoid chords with Fs in and your set, the only difference between C lydian and C Ionian is a sharpened F, so you can use the lydian mode over chords I, III, V, VI if the root chord is C Major.
     
  8. Mystique1721

    Mystique1721 bass solo, take one

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    I actually just encountered this problem today when i started to write a riff. it had f# and c# in it so i was trying to figure out what key i was playing in...At first i thought it had to be either B minor or D major. but i realised that i was actually emphasizing the F# more than anything...so i plugged in the notes to the modes and it turns out i'm playing in f# phrygian. so yeah, these modes can be tricky if you're not careful as to realize what note your song is really revolving around.
     
  9. ShadowWraith34

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    What are the main scales that Romeo uses? I want to be able to play and practice some of the solo things that he does, but it's 1000000 times easier when you know the scales. Any guitarists here that can help me out?
     
  10. noble savage

    noble savage Member

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    Ionian
    Dorian
    Phrygian
    Lydian
    Mixolydian
    Aeolian
    Locrian

    Modes of the: Melodic minor, harmonic minor, diminished and possibly pentatonics of varying degrees.

    Alright, get to it!:heh:
     
  11. Wander

    Wander 10+2=6

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    Yeah, according to my guitarist brother, those are pretty much correct.
     
  12. Detective Clarence Beauregard

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    Most guitarists use those scales, though. Unless you're in Iron Maiden. Then you only use aeolian and pentatonic.
     
  13. schenkadere

    schenkadere Obey my dog!

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    Harmonic Minor
     
  14. ShadowWraith34

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    I know he uses the modes, the modes are just the same scales different places on the neck. Unless you mean the actual scales, in which case I'm sure he doesn't use all 7. And the Harmonic Minor, yes he does use that a lot..

    Man, thanks for the help everyone, but if only there was a way to get a 100% accurate answer...

    >.>
    <.<

    *Rubs magic lamp containing Jax*
     
  15. noble savage

    noble savage Member

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    If you play CDEFGAB over a Cmajor it's an Ionian tonality. Neck positions have nothing to do with it. Only the chords in which it's played over.

    Also, Romeo uses many different scales within one song. It doesn't make sense to ask, in a general sense, what scales he uses because he uses most that I have mentioned. I find the easiest way to figure out the tonality of a section of music is to (This requires complete memorization of scale patterns) figure out the type of chord and then find a pattern of notes that is played over it. Lydian and Mixolydian I find are the easiest to recognize.
     
  16. Meedleyx10

    Meedleyx10 Member

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    Incorrect. There is a topic somewhere in the musician's corner where I explained the basics of modes if want to check it out.
     
  17. ShadowWraith34

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    I already know all of the modes and those scale patterns. I think there is a bit of misunderstanding here between modes and mode scales.

    The mode scales are Ionian, Aeolian, Mixolydian, etc. All played in a key. If the key you are playing a mixolydian is the key in which the piece is in, it's a mixolydian scale.

    However, with the major scale, the modes (Ionian, Phrygian, Dorian, Aeolian, Lydian, Mixolydian, and Locrian) are all the same scale, they are just different patterns in different places on the fretboard (Example: "A" Ionian is the same as "F" Aeolian. So they sound the same, they just unlock the whole fretboard to play on, which in turn lets you go further technically. Basically, the modes are extensions of the root scale you are playing in.

    Sorry to cause this confusion, I hope this cleared everything up.
     
  18. Meedleyx10

    Meedleyx10 Member

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    You're quite a ways off here. A Ionian and F aeolian are two entirely different things and sound nothing alike. Even if that was a typo and you meant to say A Ionian and F#aeolian (which are relative) you're still wrong. You've fallen into a common trap that most guitarists fall into in thinking that a major scale and it's modes are the same thing. I don't know where you learned the "mode vs. mode scale" terminology, but it's not correct and it's a misleading way of learning it.
     
  19. ShadowWraith34

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    I actually learned it in Music theory. And there are 6 patterns that are the same thing as a major scale, played at every tone on the fretboard. What are those called?

    (And yes I meant F#)
     
  20. schenkadere

    schenkadere Obey my dog!

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    It's all the same...do what sounds good to your ear...some of the best players have no idea what they're playing. The six patterns are the same notes running the length of the neck...in order to fully understand the theory, you need to separate yourself from the guitar fretboard and think universally.
     

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