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This should be interesting, Christians...

Discussion in 'The Philosopher' started by MetalAges, Mar 31, 2005.

  1. MetalAges

    MetalAges Metal Is As Metal Does.
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    Most of you know I am Christian. I don't hide it, yet, I don't force feed it either. Many people scratch their head and say, "Uh, you listen to Metal and you say that you're a Christian, isn't that an oxymoron?!" Not for a real Christian I say :)

    Without starting out with MY beliefs, outlook, definition, etc. on the whole "Christian" thing, I ask, what is your definition of a "Christian" and what is your opinion/immediate perception of "Christians". In this thread I want honesty, meaning, if you would describe a "Christian" using curse words or whatever, please do. I want the immediate, honest perception/opinion. Don't think about it just start typing. I will follow-up with my replies based on the follow-up posts.

    EDIT: I wasn't going to post something like this in here for a while. Seemed like the forum needed a jump start and who could think of a better topic other than Republican/Democrat! I have thought of asking this question in other forums where Christians (me) were getting slammed etc. but knew it would be a worthless, degrading, insult fest of a conversation. Hopefully here we can get some honest and open discussion going.
     
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  2. no country for old wainds

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    Ah, I'll cut into you tomorrow. ;)
     
  3. Arch

    Arch ‫‬**‪‫‬**҉‫‬**‪‫‬**҉ ‫‬*

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    There's almost 2000 year history of Christianity, so a precise definition of a "Christian" is difficult to pinpoint. The most common definition people seem to define a Christian is someone who accepts "Jesus Christ as the their Lord and Savior".

    It's a shame nowadays that the Neo-Cons are painting average Christians a bad name, just as Osama bin Laden make average Muslims look bad.

    As for outlook on other Christians, it depends how much they thrust their beliefs onto me. If they want to spout their religious ideologies onto me, I will use logic, facts, and common sense to debunk their yammerings. But most often, I get these door-to-door Jehovah's Witness and Mormon and I tell them that I'm not interested in learning about their brand of Christianity. It's mainly because I have better things to do, such as increasing my post counts here on Ultimate Metal.
     
  4. spaffe

    spaffe Geisterglut

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    I think it's amazing how tepid most organized religion generally is. The adherents belive in a being so supreme and vast it can not be described nor imaginged, yet that entity usually gets less attention than your average beliver's car och CD collection. That omnipotent god seems to spend most of his time tucked away deep in the subconcious and only brought forth when things get rough and the person needs something to hold on to.

    What I'm basically saying is that religion is being (and has been for over a hundred years at least in west) dethroned by materialism and is most of the time treated more or less as a Prozac to be popped when people's material possessions and money ceases to be enough to give happiness. Religious zealots a worthy of a lot more respect than your average bourgeois who treats realigion, like most else things, with a shallow and intermittent interest as long as its result is an immediate gain.

    That's my definion of today's average western beliver.
     
  5. MetalAges

    MetalAges Metal Is As Metal Does.
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    That was my broad definition as well.

    You know Arch, you just made a brilliant statement. Put simply, this is exactly what I say to others as well when it comes to generalizing people as a whole based on the failings of a few.

    I couldn't agree more. There are a LOT of elitist Christians out there, LOTS. Some make news headlines and some make their local newspaper headlines. There are many forms of (man made) religions as well where people have their own definition of what a "Christian" is or they have interrpreted the Bible in a specific way.

    <insert Moe voice here> Why you LITTLE! </end Moe>
     
  6. MetalAges

    MetalAges Metal Is As Metal Does.
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    I pretty much agree. I have been guilty at times in my life of pulling Jesus out of my pocket when needed. I'm human and have made some mistakes. But I do believe there are the "lifelongers" that do just as you say from start to finish.
     
  7. no country for old wainds

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    I actively oppose Christianity.

    The reaction of most people when I say this, is on the topic which you made reference to, "forcing one's beliefs down another's throat". Some go as far as to say "you're a hypocrite because you're doing what they're doing". What they conveniently don't take into account is that forcing beliefs/values upon the collective is one of few things I don't oppose in Christianity - it can be beneficial to push the herd in the right direction. It's the values themselves I'm against.

    The second mistake people make is to think I solely mean "believers". Instead, what I'm usually referring to when I say Christianity are the values rampant in current Western society, derived from Judeo-Christian religion (think moralism, egalitarianism, etc), which 99.9% of people base their lives around. I do, however, feel that belief in a deity clearly has no basis in reason and every basis in the fact that it provides an answer, meaning and refuge for those who fear mortality. Anyone can doublethink as long as it means they have a meaning!

    Now, if people thought the meaning was to live honourably, heroically, productively, in respect of nature, etcetc (like they used to) things would surely be progressing, but instead the culture was bastardised by this "help others and live forever in happiness, oh and if you don't you'll live forever in pain" mentality. Long ago (before I made the link to Christianity) I realised that there is no such thing as "selflessness", people only give to charity because it makes THEM feel good to help others. Of course, what later became clear was the ironic idea that one should be *selfless* so that THEY can have a paradisiacal afterlife (as opposed to the eternal torment). These days it doesn't matter if you're a believer, the great majority still believe that Christian values are intrinsically "good". Murder is widely considered the ultimate "evil". All of this is unhealthy

    "Unhealthy how?!" I hear you ask. Here are a couple of examples:
    - Once society is founded upon an external absolutist system based on valuing the happiness of those *less fortunate* than you being "good" and doing otherwise being "bad", we get ridiculous egalitarian movements promoting "equality" among all men. This idea is blatantly false, we're not equal at all. But, of course, it makes sure we're all anti-strength/pro-pity and therefore not a threat to political leaders. So it all works out! Don't be strong guys, you might offend somebody, you might make somebody look bad, you need to be weak and stagnant to get into heaven. Not a progressive worldview from an objective basis, but certainly one from the perspective a of a greedy member of parliament.

    - We have *souls*, ergo we are individuals who transcend the collective - transcend everything. We have no need for nature, we are above it, beyond it. Now, within the next 20 or 30 years if we continue at this rate we will have guaranteed the extinction of the human race (as said by the president of Shell Oil himself). You think Hitler killed a lot of people, you sheep are the ones who will be going to Hell! The irony seemingly has no boundaries.

    Note how most are more interested in some braindead woman's *rights* than they are about the all-encompassing, broader issues. The government are patting one another's backs because they value money, power and little else, whilst we play right into their hands, destroying everything in the process. This is one of the more obvious examples, but it's everywhere. Necessity, function, naturality, all sacrificed for the sake of ludicrous Humanist sentiment.

    So, in conclusion, I find Christians (referring to them in the broad, value-based sense) illogical and unhealthy-minded, the sooner this civilisation collapses the better.
     
  8. Episteme

    Episteme Member

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    Christianity is a religion that has been altered over and over again by Western Civilisation to suit their morals and values and this show its hypocrisy.

    When Jesus died, his disciples carried his message and it wasn't to create a new religion. This whole business about Jesus being the Lord and Saviour is a bunch of crap made up when Constantine came into power. This killed the pagan religions that Europeans used to believe and brought in the worhsip of Jesus as a divine being sent by God. This thus has shaped Western civilisation as it is now(and pretty much the rest of the world). Alot of the translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls have been barred from the rest of the world by the Catholic Church because they reveal many things which may change the face of Christianity...and thus loose some popularity points.

    I myself can't stand organized religions for the reasons spaffe has mentioned and I also agree with what GoD has said, the fact that Christianity has taken over the way of life of everyone.

    Although I oppose Christianity because of it's hypocrisy and it's influence on western culture, it would be chaos if faith was lost. The world's population is too reliant on "God" and religion.
     
  9. spaffe

    spaffe Geisterglut

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    I fully agree. If something is going to change, then the masses' worldwiew needs to be altered, and that, for obvious reasons, will not be realized through eloquent argumentation or rational information; what is needed is a myth. This could be just about anything with a transcendental quality ("mother earth, a divine being, a certain utopian society, race etc.), something to belive in that is bigger than oneself. Take the obvious example of the nazi movement; they screwed up in many ways but they really arroused the masses with help of myths and spectacles, while proclaiming race as a basis for morals and demeanour; not the usual humanitarian/utilitarian one of today.

    For a state to function (provided that that is the goal) I belive the populace needs a religion, a need proved by the fact that religion of some kind has existed in all societies (that left behind any traces) throughout history. If that belief is true or false is beyond the point, the important thing is whether it benefits society. (instead of the individual) In order to trudge on in daily life most people need a meaning and something to cling to; a myth.


    (Blehgr, too tired to write more atm)
     
  10. Doomwatcher

    Doomwatcher Member

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    I am interested in the elaboration of what will happen after the fall of modern society.
     
  11. Sepsis

    Sepsis Brutal

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    I'm a Christian too :headbang:
    I don't really have anything much to say about the faith itself (I'm a believer, but I'm not that great a Christian) but everything I've read leads me to believe that God indeed does exist and that Jesus came as the savior for mankind.

    I can't say that I like the implications of it, because I'm a fairly arrogant, prideful person, the implications being that 1) we are all sinners and 2) that we cannot become non-sinners by our own steam. As far as I can tell, the most important thing, indeed, the only thing, necessary to get into heaven is to accept forgiveness for your transgressions. I think it's probably the hardest thing one can do (sincerely, not just pay lip-service to it), and it's something I've not yet been able to do in my two years of being Christian.

    I don't know where this is going, so I'll close now.

    btw great idea for a forum Deron.
     
  12. Melodeath

    Melodeath Moonbow

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    Can you elaborate on the Dead Sea Scrolls?
     
  13. MetalAges

    MetalAges Metal Is As Metal Does.
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    I only made it but it was GoD's idea. I'llreply to his post as soon as I am done looking up the big words.... :)
     
  14. no country for old wainds

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    I've not fully formulated my views on this yet, it's something I'm having a good think about (with the help of reading some philosophy, of course).

    Deron, your proposterous and ostentatious insinuation that I utilise prodigious terminology for the intention of ensuring perspicacious countenance is superlatively repugnant and counterfactual.

    (BTW, it was PE who suggested it before I, and people have done so in the past as well. Credit me if you like, though.)
     
  15. MetalAges

    MetalAges Metal Is As Metal Does.
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    Ok here we go the best I can :)

    I wish I had a response to this but I really don't. It's not realy based on hard evidence but more your opinion than anything, and I can respect that. I don't agree with it. I do see where you are coming from, and can see how some people would be in line with your thought process. I've had a few instances in my life where it gave me the proof I needed, personally, that there was a higher power at work. I can't "reason" it and make people all of a sudden "see the light" and agree with me though. I can share what's happened and they can make their own decisions.

    Again I agree that many people live by this and think that's all life is about but I don't think that's a good generalization. That's the tip of a large iceberg of things that encompass "being a Christian." I would call your brief description the mass media version of a Christian.

    Again, some do. I for one do not fall into that category and I am not alone, nor do I think I would be in the lesser percentage. Once again I think this is a media definition. I give to charity. I tell no one about it really, and it hurts me to do to be honest cause I'd rather spend that money on something for ME ME ME haha, but I don't do it to make myself feel good. I know it is helping someone that is not as fortunate in life for whatever reason. I don't give a LOT but what I do give what I feel comfortable in doing and will always. As "tough" as I may think I have it sometimes I know THAT is a selfish thought and there are TONS of people a lot worse off and they can use anything I and others are ableto give. I don't do it for myself. Does it make me feel good doing? Sure, but not in a self absorbed "make me feel good" kinda way.

    Well I think it is always good to approach things in a selfless way. Imgaine how much better certain things in life would be if more thought that way. But let's face it we're human and it's very easy to be selfish in many ways. While it may be recommended to be selfless it in no way means you'll face Hell for being selfish alone. Another example of a tip of the iceberg.

    i simply don't know where you got this thought process from. It's nothing I have been hammered on in Church or anything like that. Sure I believe we all have equal opportunity in life and many times we reap what we sow but I have never been pushed to be weak, take pity on someone just "for the sake of". People need to take themselves up by the boot straps sometimes and want to help themselves before I would be willing to lend a helping hand. There's the term "free will" and we all have it. I'm not quite sure where you get your example from, if it is a specific religion ir from a specific book, etc. Certainly isn't my belief as a whole.

    Not sure where you are getting this from, is this a quote or from a bok or something? God instructed mankind to care for the Earth. Have we? Pft many things have gone wrong in that regard! I've said many times a lot of things have become about power, greed, money, no care for others or the land, animals, etc. This really has nothing to do with "Christians" but more mankind in general. Its somewhat driven attitude to expand expand expand. I really don't know how this made it into your post, expand upon it if you wish.

    I found as I got to the end of your post I lost the meaning of what the original thread was about. I don't see what this had to do with "Christians" except those fanatics picketing out front of her home about "life". This of course, as Arch pointed out, does not define Christians. It's a media example and exploitation of a "Christian" but far from what one is all about. You seemed to veer off on another topic unless I missed something.

    Fair statement, true in many cases, but I have to disagree as again (as with many things I see online/posted from people) I think this broad blanket definition of a "Christian" is more the media defined definition of a Christian. It really does bring back Arch's post. For example Muslims. I don't know any Muslims personally. But man would it be REALLlll easy for me to make a blanket statement and condemn them all just based on everything I see on TV, in newspapers etc. Simple fact is I know all the normal, respecting, life loving, people respecting, etc. Muslims are not going to be talked about on TV, or in the newspapers. That doesn't sell ads. That doesn't sell papers. That doesn't make for good TV movies of the week or "bad guy" stereotypes in the movies. It would just not be realistic of me to do that. I think there are a TON of people out there who have gotten a REAL bad taste in theor mouth by even Christians they know. I mean, isn't it so easy to say "Hey, yeah, I'm a Christian" and then it just ends there?

    Here's my real life example: The reason I left my last Church was because of the same attitude of "Christians" getting on their elitist high horse and condemning others without stopping in their tracks and looking in the mirror. The pastor made this statement (in close to exact words). It hadto do with the fire in Rhode Island at that Great White concert that killed those 100 people. He basically said "You can bet those people are sitting in Hell right now..." I mean, I about wanted to go up there and choke him out! Why?? That's not what the Bible teaches a Christian is about. that could have easily been ME at that show. I know where I sand in life and for him to say something like that just floored me and I left that Church. That's not what being a Christian is all about and those words that came out of his mouth were certainly not bible based, but mere opinion given as "Bible" fact. Totally absurd.

    Ok this post is long enough for now. :)
     
  16. MetalAges

    MetalAges Metal Is As Metal Does.
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    Have to agree here. Religion is man made. The reason we have so many is because someone at some point decides they read a different definition of the Bible or don't want to completely follow it a certain way based on another "religion" so, a different or sub-religion is formed.

    Again, religion is man made. I think Jesus intended his teachings to be carried on and that is the general basis of being "Christian" but that's about where it ends I think.

    Christianity was around before Constantine and even when he allowed it (people were persecuted before then) he still did not follow Christianity beliefs (He worshiped MArs and some other planet thing if I recall). He supposedly had a vision from God that appeared in dream and on his March to Rome and from then on proclaimed Christianity. Who's to say it never happened <shrug>.


    Maybe, maybe not, who knows really? I'm sure it could be true to a point but really, who knows? It's easy to say "yes they contain information that will change everything!" but it's all words. No different really than people claiming they have seen the UFOs in area 51 and/or seen/been abducted by aliens. I mean who knows really what's out there. I think there has to be SOME form of life out there but to what extent...do do do do <insert Twilight Zone music here>

    If I recall there were some parts of it released and it changed things that the King James version of the Bible contained (which in turn was included in the NIV version of the Bible). Who knows, really, what other information is out there.

    We haven't quite assimilated everyone yet! Resistance is futile!

    Well, what do you reply to my replies? Which in essence says, Christians as you may define them just isn't the correct definition or representation? It is more media based or based on bad experiences from fanatics or elitist "Christians".

    I oppose the hypocritical version of "Christian" as well.
     
  17. Episteme

    Episteme Member

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    The Dead Sea Scrolls are dated 100 years before Christ, through the times of Christ and even about a 100 years after Christ. It contains accounts of Jewish people during that time and the origins of Christianity and after. There has been some controversy surrounding them a few years ago and how the Church has tried to surpress translations of some of the texts.

    There is an account of James in the Acts of Apostles who is supposedly Jesus' brother leading a faction or enclave which was regarded as the first and original Christians however, Acts only offers Paul's point of view. Acts was written by a Greek who identified himself as Luke, and could be Paul's close friend from Colossians 4:14. Anybody who opposed Paul's point of view was cast as a villain in Acts. It is clear that James knew Jesus personally, as did Peter but Paul had no personal acquaintance with him. Paul would have been considered the original "Christian heretic" according to Christianity in those times. Jesus made it clear in Gospels that people were to only acknowledge God because it would have been extreme blasphemy to advocate worship of any mortal figure including himself. In John 10:33-5, Jesus is accused of blasphemy of claiming to be God. He replies, citing Psalm 82, "Is it not written in your Law, I(meaning God) said you are Gods? So the Law uses the word gods of those to whom the word of God was addressed."

    Paul then shunts God and establishes the worhsip of Jesus. Jesus as an equivalent of Adonis, of Tammuz, of Attis or any of the pagan gods who populated the Middle East at the time. All the accounts of his virgin birth and his resurrection from the dead are Pauline inventions based on pagan gods. Paul knew exactly what he was doing, using religious propaganda, understood what is necessary to turn a man into a God. Just like how Roman emperors were thought to be living gods. While Paul was apparently to be sentenced to death by the Romans and there were Jews who wanted him dead too, Paul(being a Roman citizen) somehow convinced the Romans that he were to speak to everyone. Acts ends abruptly, as if someone had stopped the writer's work or had removed the original.

    In any case, the early 'Church' as it appears in Acts, is rent by incipient schism, the instigator of which is Paul. And Paul's adversary being the mysterious figure that is supposed to be the Lord's brother, James. The last thing on James' mind was the founding of a new religion and Paul is doing that. His depiction of Jesus is a full fledged god, and the miracles of parallel of that of pagan gods. In the next few hundred years, Christianity grew into the worship of Jesus as a divine being, and came less and less to do with Jesus as a teacher.

    That's just one of the analysis from the Dead Sea Scrolls, if you have the time to read up, check out a book called the Dead Sea Scrolls Deception. It contains some vital information, but of course it's just a book. We'd have to make our own opinion of it.
     
  18. The Devil's Steed

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    Which Pagan gods were these miracles based on?
     
  19. no country for old wainds

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    Mm, but needed for what? Needed to actually know God exists, or needed simply to justify the belief to yourself and thus become convinced that he does through convenience?

    And I know I can't prove anything, nor can I prove the tooth fairy doesn't exist. It stands to reason, though, that I won't believe in anything until something solidly indicates that it exists, and this is not the case. The weaknesses and hypocrisies and delusions prevalent in so many Christians' state of mind in so many areas makes me further doubt their so called "realisations" in this field.

    In a sense yeah, I'm hardly describing the entire religion with that one line, but I find that a lot of the branches of Christian values are derived from that, and a couple of other primary "root-values". Perhaps even one singular root-value.

    I don't think this is a media definition actually, I think only a few people in the world have really comprehended the idea. If being selfless is "enjoying (and thus valuing) the pleasure of others" then of course it's possible, in fact we're conditioned to do so, but it's mentally impossible to do something that doesn't benefit you in some way. To do so would be to cease to be.

    You give to charity because you consider it a good thing to do. Why do you consider it a good thing to do? Because helping others pleases or satisfies you in some manner, whether it's the desire to be a good person, or the desire to quench a nagging guilt/pity you'll feel if you don't give to the weak, or whatever.

    The Ten Commandments are based primarily on Humanism, are they not?

    Important: You don't understand why I'm linking a few of these things to Christianity because you think what I'm talking about is simply human nature, but in reality the collective human mentality has been shaped primarily by Judeo-Christianity. Many people don't realise how much the world is still based upon the core Christian values, regardless of how corrupt it may seem on the surface. Note that these couple of examples weren't supposed to be your belief as a whole, I'm just describing a couple of spin-offs from the Christian worldview. I'm not even suggesting it's what the religion intends, I'm far more interested in the end than the reasons for coming to said end. I'm not trying to "blame", I'm just trying to trace problems to their source.

    Humanism arose from the Christian idea of "loving thy neighbour". Egalitarianism arose from Humanism as a way of superficially wiping out our strengths and weaknesses (instead of letting nature genuinely wipe out our weaknesses) - it's unnatural, unfounded and perilous, serving only to discourage strength and progression. And our society is obsessed.

    Again, note what I put in bold before. In this case, it was originally Christianity which instilled a belief that humans are the primary species on Earth, they have souls and are God's children. Over time this has led to nature being actively disregarded as secondary to the comforts and conveniences of humanity. It isn't human nature, many pre-Christian societies lived in harmony with nature.

    I don't actually think the media are relevant, I don't get a lot of media exposure, and I've deducted most of this from philosophy, psychology and just plain ol' common sense. Judeo-Christianity, regardless of intent, has inspired a harmful worldview in the collective that's led (beit directly or otherwise) to the stagnation and ultimately the destruction of the human race.

    Oh of course, such things are retarded, though it's natural for an organisation to condemn that which could potentially (at least in their eyes) threaten their stability. I'm thinking of more subtle things though, certain mindsets that can be traced back to Christianity, which ultimately have led us to where we are now.

    I'm not trying to tar you all with a bad-guy brush, I try to tackle ideas rather than those who support said ideas. This society is based on Christian ideas, and it's not working very well, that's the fundamental reason and inspiration for my views.
     
  20. Glampers

    Glampers GrrRRrnnGgggRnrrgh!

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    My immediate thought when someone says "Christian" is an instant picture of all those bible-thumping shouters who try and make everyone feel that their own outlook is wrong.

    Which is a shame, as Jesus didn't actually encourage anyone to do that type of thing, he was quite opposed to organised religion - he wanted people to fight for him with swords instead.
     

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