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Transgender

Discussion in 'The Philosopher' started by waif, Apr 11, 2008.

  1. waif

    waif Member

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    This OP could get a little long. Bear with me, or skip down to the TLDR section.

    Okay, so. Today was the Day Of Silence at my school. For those who don't know, the day of silence is when some people elect not to speak at all for an entire day to symbolize the silence society imposes on the LGBT community. Today is not the national date, but my school did it today.

    Yesterday was the Day of Dialogue. The Day of Dialogue is not a national thing, but plenty of schools do it. Basically, speakers came in and talked in the auditorium about stuff pertinent to LGBT stuff.

    I wasn't particularly interested by the presentations, but it did get me thinking about transgender people.

    First off: definition of transgender.
    Transgender people are people who identify as a gender other than what they were born as. So, a woman who sees herself as a man. These people still have the anatomy of their birth gender. Some choose to "medically transition," which can mean either taking hormones or going all the way and having surgery. Most transgender people don't medically transition.

    Okay, so. This is not a thread about gay people. I will briefly summarize my views on gays, lesbians, and bisexuals.
    It doesn't hurt me or anyone else. It makes them happy. Therefore, there's nothing morally wrong with it.
    I also believe that it's biological and natural. Since there are many instances of homosexuality among animals, this isn't really debatable.

    Let that be the last mention of homosexuals in this thread.

    Anyhow. So I was thinking about transgenders, and I feel like it's wrong. A person is born either a man or a woman. I think we need to accept that. You are what you are. This shouldn't prevent you from doing anything, but there are some things in life that you have to accept, and I feel like this is one of them. Insisting that you feel like a man is just denying reality. It's kind of childish.

    Another thing is that it reinforces gender roles. If you find it necessary to see yourself as a woman in order to wear a skirt, or to see yourself as a man in order to play football or have sex with women, that reinforces traditional gender roles. I feel that said gender roles are outdated and restrictive. My basic philosophy is that people should be free to do what they want that doesn't hurt others. Gender roles restrict what someone can do. By seeing yourself as the opposite gender, I feel like this gives implicit acknowledgment to these gender roles.

    However, I don't think that being transgender is wrong. I recognize that this is my opinion, and would never try to enforce it on others. I support the establishment of a national bill outlawing workplace discrimination against transgender people.

    I apologize for the incoherence and ramblingness of this post, as well as for all the words that aren't real words. Anyhow, please share your thoughts.


    TLDR Version: What's your opinion on trannys?
     
  2. Vossyrus

    Vossyrus Member

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    I can see what you're saying. I think it's stupid if you believe yourself to be of the other gender when you clearly aren't (especially with the so-called spiritual connection that some have convinced themselves to have with the opposite gender). I can draw the same comparions to religious people though in that people can convince themselves of anything should they try hard enough.

    But I think its perfectly fine for example, if an androgynous male may consider himself to be just that and not trying to fit into one specific gender role (as long as he recogizes that he is a male) - but still its likely that people will view him as someone who just wants to be a woman. And that goes for the same for women who are more masculine.

    But then of course, there are those who are born as hermaphrodites (or a mix of both genders), and perhaps they may be closer to one gender than the other.
     
  3. OldScratch

    OldScratch Member

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    I can't get past these first two paragraphs! This is really what goes on in public schools today? No wonder I apparently can no longer relate to anyone under thirty years of age!
    I apologize as I realize I have nothing intelligent to add here...I just cannot believe how much things have changed since I was in school. I am certain I am far too much of a dinosaur to objectively assess "transgenderism" one way or another, as I have never had reason to do so, know nothing of it, and am fully content to remain thus. Holy shit I'm old...
     
  4. epihasi

    epihasi Member

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    i say we live in a free world, if someone feels more comfortable with a dick or tits, so be it.
    no one has the right to act all holier-than-thou and say it's wrong or immoral to want to be of the other gender.
    it's like saying homosexualism is wrong because it doesn't contribute to our evolution, which is complete bullshit.
    there's a reason people undergo sexchange, and that's evidence that there's more than just the "oh, i'm a man, so i have to be content with it" - attitude.
    live and let live, it's not wrong, it's not childish, i think it's immensely brave to undergo such surgery, accepting the fact that one feels better as the other gender.
     
  5. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    Yes this has no place in schools, nor do all the people telling kids to have their parents arrested or any of the many other forms of meddling that goes on in schools

    animals do not have homosexual sex

    I recogonize that people are born with the... excuse my spelling... their cromosomes messed up but that is exactly what it is. Its not normal or natural its a genetic development flaw, along the lines of siamese twins and so many other things.

    These people should not be treated any differently than anybody else, but Im not sure that is whats really wanted, sometimes it appears to me they want special treatment, special attention... for example: a day of dialoge then followed by a day of silence in school.......

    if our school systems are really concerned about it they can add a chapter into the biology course at which point students can conclude that very occasionally this happens.
     
  6. Vossyrus

    Vossyrus Member

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    I guess I'm sort of fuzzy on the definition between differences in a transgender person and a transsexual. Wouldn't a transsexual be one who has had an operation (pre/post etc), and a transgender be one without wanting the operation - Or are they essentially the same idea?

    Basically my stance is that I disagree with people who choose to believe that they are of the other gender. Like it kind of annoys me that the guy from Sopor Aeternus now refers to himself as a "She", when he is male and has had no sex-change operation.

    As for sex changes, they don't really bother me, but most types of vanity related surgeries I don't really agree with, but of course I don't exactly care.
     
  7. speed

    speed Member

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    Homosexuality, contrary to what someone stated on this thread, actually occurs in almost every animal species. Furthermore, throughout history, there have always been transgender persons. Of course, how freely said persons could express their trueselves in their respective cultures, depends, or depended on the vagaries and values of their culture and history. I assume that when it was not culturally acceptable to outwardly act as a transgender, said persons did so in privacy. There are numerous examples from the ancient world (even in ancient and still extant religions like Hinduism), the renaissance, etc of transgenders. Sulla's lover and confident was a transgender. In Japan and Thailand, it was, and apparently still is a a normal part of the culture. So, to me, the question is whether gender is a cultural or genetic construct. Very intriguing I think.
     
  8. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    I would require solid proof of this in other mammals which I doubt will be found

    Transgender would not survive in other mammals either due to them still being maintained by natural selection
     
  9. The Poona of Peshwa

    The Poona of Peshwa Blood Glutton

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    Bonobos, elephants, sheep, dolphins, lots of birds all exhibit homosexual behaviour. And besides, why should be model what is correct on behaviour in the animal kingdom? That's the naturalistic fallacy.
     
  10. waif

    waif Member

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    I'm not saying it's immoral. I feel, however, like it's ignoring reality. You were born a certain way, you must accept this. It's like if you're born poor, you can't just say "I identify as a rich person"

    The whole point of the thing is that the homophobic views of society force LGBT kids in school into silence, and that these kids are frequently harassed, beaten, and even murdered. Therefore, these issues need to be addressed. I agree with this. Also, I have no idea what you're talking about about kids getting their parents arrested.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6066606.stm
    I await your admissions of error.

    Not really.
    http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html#whatcauses

    They want an equal rights law, not special rights. They want attention because they need protection. Not long ago an eighth-grader was killed in California for being gay. What they want is for that to stop. In order to achieve those ends, it's necessary for them to get attention.

    Let's just drop the word "transsexual." Basically, transgender people identify as a gender other than their birth gender. Some of them medically transition to become more like that gender.
    But then let's say he has the operation. Does that make him a woman?

    I think it's mostly cultural. Men are on average naturally more aggressive, perhaps, but their cultural upbringing can change this, making them more aggressive than natural, or less.

    I don't think there are transgender animals, since there generally aren't gender roles among animals. However, I'm not sure about this.

    The transgender animals themselves wouldn't pass on their genes, but a study of fruit flies that I can't find atm found that homosexuality was far more common among the nephews of gay fruit flies. This strongly suggest that if homosexuality is not entirely genetic, there is at least a strong genetic element to it.

    I'm not saying we should. But a lot of people argue that homosexuality is unnatural and against God's will - if it was, why would he have animals do it?
     
  11. Vossyrus

    Vossyrus Member

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    It bothers me that he would call himself a “She” when he isn’t. At least if he had the sex change there would be at least some arguable truth to it. For example, I don’t believe its right for me to tell people I am a woman or that I believe I am a woman because in fact it isn’t true. And well, a couple years ago, I remember hearing about a man who underwent a sex change and wanted to play in women’s golf. There was obviously controversy here because is he really male or now female? But like I said, my only issue is with those people who are convinced they are the other gender, not just “identifying” with the other gender. It’s perfectly fine for people to feel more similarity with the opposite gender.
     
  12. BlackMetalWhiteGuy

    BlackMetalWhiteGuy Manly Man!

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    Here's an interesting news article on the subject.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316316,00.html

     
  13. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    Well it will be easy for these people to convince the mass of sheep because they will leave out a thing that animals do thats called posturing yet they never actually perform the act of sex. I've seen bulls mount bulls, dogs mount dogs but nothing becomes of it. Its some method in which they communicate and carry on. These animals only do the real thing when females go into thier cycle and its for the purpose of procreation... at which point the very same above said animals will tear each other limb for limb... this is what the postureing was about.

    I seriously doubt they wish they could ware skirts instead of britches and in that case they would not procreat thus not passing on the hormones gone astray

    I cant speak for one breed of monkeys or penguins

    fruit flys.... count me out.... insects will never bare any revelance to me when looking at humanity or mammals

    one example of a kid getting killed is NOT a reason to stuff all this down every communities throat nor their children. People are getting killed all the time for one reason or the other or none at all. One incident does not mean everybodys gonna start killing everyone thats different. Prime example of this nanny housewife meddling is when they decided because two kids commited suicide after listening to a Judas Priest song meant everyone that listened to Priest was going to start commiting suicide.

    People need to learn to live and let die and stop getting up in each others face and pressing trivial issues down everyones throat over thier own or others short falls.

    Say your a boy that decides to put makeup and a skirt on and show up in school and expect no reaction from people without this hangup ? No I think you have much more than that going on... or your just plane stupid.

    Say your a butch girl, wanna dress like a man, strap your chect in tight, cut your hair off.... next you wanna tell me its natural ? come on.... thats the equivalent of trying to tell me "cutters" are natural.

    I was out tonight at a bar to see a bunch of guys I know in a band. There were two girls putting on a big show, pawing all over each other. Now I suppose you want to tell me this is natural and there was no other reason for them doing that other than "they were horney" or "in love".... yea right ! Must be all the straight couples that were there that were not doing that are what.... "sexually repressed"

    Theres alot more going on with these issues than the surface we are presented with. Less of it thrown up in everyones face would go along ways. We have alot more serious issues in this world to deal with than peoples sexual hangups...... yet whats front page news.... sexual hangups, who dressed horrible for the Oscars, who made 4 million dollars last year, another car bombing in Iraq... all the no brainer stuff
     
  14. Vossyrus

    Vossyrus Member

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    :erk:

    I think you’re making some poor arguments. Homosexuals, transgenders etc have been victims and targets of hate crimes for a very long time, and are so because of their sexuality, appearance and lifestyle. That was an example of one example of the thousands out there. And I think it’s important to increase awareness of these issues, but I’m not sure if most people especially in school are mature enough to keep an open mind, and listen. These are important issues because society is obviously still in a state where they cannot truly accept transgenders or look at them without the thought of "different" being the first thing that comes to mind. I'm sure all they are asking for is to be treated fairly, and equally.

    And why should one’s appearance even matter? Why should people care about how others live their lives when it does not even remotely affect their own? How is dressing like that any more unnatural than what anyone else does? But let’s all live naturally then - let’s do away with technology, clothing, haircuts so we can live naturally. I think humans are past that point, to where they can make conscious decisions for themselves and choose how they want to live their life. Transgenders aren't causing harm to anyone.

    And are you trying to tell me that only lesbians make out with each other in public? It was at a bar! What goes on in a bar? People drink, hook up, showcase little class and care little about what others think of them - and this applies to a lot of people.
     
  15. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    No, I know full fledged attention whoring when I see it. The rest of the people in there had nothing to prove, these two girls obviously did. That is something called get a life and grow up while your at it.

    Gays are no more prone nor immune to hate crimes than anybody else. A white boy isnt going to make it through the hood in good order after dark... so guess what ? He dont go there. Thats a key point "dont go there". There has also been many incidences of gays beating the crap out of people. Maybe they just cry louder ?

    Maybe people dont want "johnny" parading down the halls of school with his legs shaved and a dress. Then they have to question whats his point in doing this ? Is it not to get boys to look at him ? Then whats a straight kid supposed to feel when johnny turns around ? Just say "opps" I guess I shouldnt have been checking that out ? What this is doing is making everybody else have to deal with johnnys problems so he doesnt have to. Now this one kid in school is please and getting all the attention he wants and everybody else has to make the sacrifice. This is no more sociolly responsible than a kid that would punch johnny in the face for making him sick to his stomach. Its all about responsibility and mutual respect. You dont force people to go there and deal with your problems and they will not give you a problem. If you want to be mature about it you bide your time dealing with your own problem until your all grown up and out in the big world where you spend your time with those with the same interests, same as everybody else does. Life is a series of decisions, we all have to make sacrifices and we all pay for our bad decisions. Any of us that has any mental hangups has to deal with them, we dont go out and force socioty to bite the bullit due to our whims, most those that do it end up in a court room.

    We could put up the same arguement that stealing and violence are natural human traits. They are certainly much more frequently occuring than people with "transgender" dilemmas. We lock these people up for their hangups. Now you will say, oh thats totally different transgenders dont cause people harm. While that is not entirely true it is also why we dont lock them up. But they will go through life giving many people the creeps, why? Because when straight men think of or desire a woman it is for the fact that she is a woman, that is 100% natural and a repulsive knee jerk reaction to any alterations of this is also 100% natural. No different than the somewhat true but exagerated scenerio of - one person pukes, next thing you know everybody else is so grossed out everyone starts puking. Or the reaction people have when walking along and suddenly see a snake.... they jump, some people will totally freak out and start running. Others will grab a shovel and kill the snake, these are natural responces older than the written language.

    Also most all "normal" "decent" people will not decide to beat on a gay or transgender person and will treat them decently but most may keep them at "arms lenght", this is also 100% natural, no harm done and once again the person with the personal issues is faced with a sacrifice but they will not have it with those of similiar interests. Its no different than natural social sacrifices people with less than perfect personalities make. A bit low on social skills ? You have to accept the fact that you will not be the life of the party, your phone will not be ringing off the hook, ect. ect. ect. Are we to start holding special days in school and governmental regulations that require everyone to make sure to call the socially challenged once a day and ask them to "hang out"?

    This thing we are talking about here, is making everyone else pay the price for people with hang ups. On one hand you have this person with some kind of sexual dilemma, banging heads with people that have violent impulses toward what they naturally find repulsive. So were going to bang it into everyones head until they no longer find it repulsive ? and those that dont catch on and repress their churning stomach and possible knee jerk reaction shall pay the price so johnny can make no sacrifices and parade around school with his lip stick & shaved legs ? Maybe Mom and Dad can buy him hormone pills so he can grow breasts ? Yeah... thats real natural. Maybe we can get the school systems to start supplying hormone pills and run a campaign "you too can grow breasts"... "national breast growing week"

    I know I sound harsh, I have less problems with these people than it appears... due to the fact that I have major problems with them getting in my face, making huge political issues over their problems when there is so many bigger fish to fry.

    Im pissed off because Im left handed and scissors always hurt my fingers bad (harm) and I cant walk into a music store and play all the guitars to find what I like and if I do decide to buy a guitar I have to order it, not knowing if I will like it and it cost me hundreds of dollars more (financial prejudice and punishment) yet you dont see me lobbying the government and wasting tax payers money. Calling for a "Im not talking to anyone" day in school. Its a sacrifice I have to make and have had to my whole life. I deal with it just fine.
     
  16. Norsemaiden

    Norsemaiden barbarian

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    If someone gets a yearning to be surgically transformed into something or someone else then why not let them? And the taxpayer has a moral duty to pay for the operation or else it's cruel and unfair.
    Do I win the politically correct prize?
     
  17. Vossyrus

    Vossyrus Member

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    I see plenty of "normal" people do this. I don’t see what your point is.

    Do you think racism is serious issue, or is that just a trivial thing? I’m pretty sure anyone who takes a stroll down a ghetto neighbourhood after dark won’t exactly receive a warm welcome. And can you cite a lot of incidents where straight people have been beaten up or murdered because of the lone fact that they were heterosexual, or because they dressed like the average person?

    Well if you see “Johnny” walking down the halls with a dress on, why would you be looking up his dress to see if he shaved his legs? And please, transgenders can be of all different kinds of sexuality so it’s ridiculous to say that they adjust their appearance to attract attention from guys like you who dislike them already.

    You’re completely missing the point. I’m sure this “johnny” character just wants to be treated fairly and doesn’t want this special attention or treatment. People like you are the reason why this is such an issue because you cannot accept those different from you. Honestly, why do you think racism/prejudice views have always been an issue? Once again, these lifestyle choices of others shouldn't be an area of concern to you so that's why these situations receive all this debate, and attention.

    The rest of your response appears to have just turned into a troll effort. Should I have the right to punch you in the face because of your narrowmindedness? :rolleyes:
     
  18. BlackMetalWhiteGuy

    BlackMetalWhiteGuy Manly Man!

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    The scientific community isn't really concerned with what's relevant to an idiot. Whether you care to believe it or not, animals such as insects actually share striking similarities with other unrelated phyla, such as vertebrates, even down to a genetic level. In one experiment, the gene responsible for the development of eyes was removed from a group of mouse embryos and predictably, they were born without eyes. In the second generation, the eyes gene from fruit flies was inserted into the mouse embryos and they were born with eyes just like any other mouse, even though the compound eyes of an insect are vastly different from mammalian eyes. Consequently, it's not a far stretch to imagine what relevance a "gay gene" in a fruit fly might have to humanity.
     
  19. TheAnonymous

    TheAnonymous Member

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    Homosexuality does occur in animals and is a genetic flaw. However, that is only relevant in the natural world, and seeing how human beings have far surpassed the natural world in almost every single aspect of our lives, these "genetic flaws" do not affect us, therefore a human homosexual is no different than any other man, unlike an animal homosexual. Homosexuality is perfectly natural, or it wouldn't have appeared in a natural way, which it has, in all history. It being wrong on an evolutionary standpoint is simply irrelevant for us.

    About transgenders, I'm less familiar with the subject, but I guess that like homosexuality it's also partly genetic and partly aquired. On a personal level it seems wrong, because it's completely altering yourself, which just doesn't seem right, so naturally if it was someone I knew I would advise him against it, but generally if people want to do it they can go ahead. It's their lives and bodies and who the fuck am I to say what they can and cannot do with it?
     
  20. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    well both of those were amusing attemps at validation and far from the point.

    Can the fly goo be inserted into transgenders and then they will only live for a season. Totally silly isnt it ? Just one small reason why I dont relate insects to people. Even your artical implicates that it is a mutation. Maybe if they can do this with the eye they can do the same to avoid this gender confusion in humans. You are also wrong, the scientific community is highly interested in entertaining their idiotic notions. Gypsy Moth.. anyone ? I'll admit we do share consumption issues with the little legged worm.
    ------------------------------------
    So where is it you hang out, teenage house parties ? Give it 10 years, you will find it odd and highly unappropiate, then you will see it for what it is.

    Yes racism is a petty issue that has been way to long in the tooth. Ignorance on many issues on all sides are perpetuating the problem and Im sick of it. I'm not the one thats blind. I said before people get killed all the time for various reasons or none at all, doesnt matter why they were killed. Can you site these thousands of cases of gays being beaten and know for a fact that it was for that simple reason ? How do you know they didnt get up in someones face ? I had two situations where gays would not back off and I had to make my point very loudly and firmly. I started out being "decent", was that a mistake? why wasnt the respect returned ?

    this is really weak, if you didnt get the point to my scenerio it is you that has the tunnel vision and jumps to conclusions.

    No, you are missing the point, johnny wants special attention... "see me, I was a boy last year but this year Im pretending to be a girl, when the female hormone pills kick in you will see". Maybe in many peoples eyes they view johnny as treating them unfairly. Do you want to say a boy wishing to be a girl is not a special situation ? Thus requiring special attention and people doing head stands to appease the peculiar needs of this special situation ? If this is the case whats with the "Im not talking to anybody day in school" Hazing is a problem that reaches far beyond gays or transgenders and by percentage of population they are but a fraction.

    People like me ? Gee, I feel Im being treated unfairly, I think Im gonna start crying. I accept difference in people and see them for what they are. This is how I can see the big picture and not just one narrow side and jump on the poor poor them wagon. This is why I gave the many different scenerios and why you could not understand them, jumped to conclusions and gave a very weak responce that amounted to little more than a narrow minded conception of what I was saying.

    Theres more people effected by this than just "johnny" and he's highly outnumbered. I think these other people deserve fair treatment and should not have to step out of their way and have to deal with these peoples personal problems in school. I believe what I said about after one is out in the world and find their own place was more than reasonable, I believe that what I said about sacrifices is not only reasonable but a fact of life.
     

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