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Transgender

Discussion in 'The Philosopher' started by waif, Apr 11, 2008.

  1. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    The figures are irrelevant because they throw everything in there regardless of the extreme. I know anxioty and depression can be an extreme... but I also know it can be nothing but another day. Then they are taken from polls - "have you ever been depressed?".... "well..... yes" baboom MENTAL DISORDER! "have you ever felt anxious?" "well....... yes" baboom another MENTAL DISORDER ! "We need to crank out some more drugs... these people need us" "Have you ever taken drugs or drank alcohol"... "well..... yea" baboom - MENTAL DISORDER !

    Hey ride their train if it pleases you.

    When you get a chance to apply some observation, and take it, you might have some credentials yourself. Then you would know animals dont engage in sex as humans do. If you knew what you were reading this would have rung a bell, which it may have because great selective qouter separator deleter that you are you ommited it......
     
  2. 10293847

    10293847 Member

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    I find it interesting that I have stumbled upon this thread. I was listening to NPR (National Public Radio) the other day, and there was an hour special regarding this issue.

    It was about a person born a male who had, ever since their parents could detect, acted like a girl. From the whole playing with dolls, wearing skirts, and having long hair examples. This person's parents were typical and nothing was out of the ordinary in this child's upbringing. No matter what the parents did to change him to become more like a male, it did not work.

    They spoke with many specialists and psychologists regarding their child, and there were two options they received: One, would be to allow the child to continue to act like a girl and that if this person felt more comfortable with being a girl, so be it. The problem with this was that the other boys in the school would beat him up because he was acting like a girl. And the fear would be that this person would sustain even more psychological damage with the physical abuse along with the emotional. The other option was to delve deeper into possible psychological issues and to try to, "fix" this person by changing his mindset into one of a male.

    Now at this point, one could say, "Why are you trying to change this person into something they are not comfortable with?" The answer would be to bring up another example. In the past, when there were signs of one displaying homosexual leanings, they would be taken to a psychologist to, "fix" this "problem". Today, we see homosexuality as a natural occurence, and so why couldn't it be possible that one was born with a sex that is not natural to them? It doesn't seem like much of a difference to me to see one who is comfortable with their sex and happens to enjoy their same sex, and one who is not comfortable with their own sex and finds the opposite sex attractive.

    Ultimately, what occured in this case was this: When this child was around sixteen, they allowed their son to fully embrace the desire to become a female, and she began to wear female clothes, walk like a female would, and essentially become a female, until she was finally able to have the surgery to match her outside with her inside.

    She has not been happier, and her parents have slowly began to embrace their daughter and have said goodbye to their son.

    I think in time, these people will be seen no differently than a gay person. I don't think there is any reason at all to stop one from doing what they wish.
     
  3. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    Nice to see someone that can actually organize their thoughts. I too have seen and listened to many programs on this controvercial subject over the course of decades. However I still dont believe it has a place around school children for a multitude of reasons. Everyone is stopped from doing as they wish for one reason or another.
     
  4. waif

    waif Member

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    If it's depression extreme enough to be diagnosed as clinical depression, it's not a joke. To be included in this it would have to be clinical depression. Have you ever been diagnosed with clinical depression?
    Do you know this for a fact or are you making shit up?
    Yes, that's just how it happens.
    He said, neatly sidestepping the question. I take it, then, that you have no credentials.
    It's the other way around, tbh. Ever heard of "doggy-style?"

     
  5. Einherjar86

    Einherjar86 Active Member

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    InFlames, I know you said you didn't want to bring up homosexuality anymore, but it seems that it's being discussed anyway. I think that the fact that homosexuality occurs in animals doesn't make it "natural." This is my own personal opinion, and I don't want to ruffle any feathers. I have no problem with homosexuals. The choices they make are their own. I agree with you; they're not hurting anyone, and they're happy. I also believe that if we view homosexuality within a moral scope, we can't call it "wrong." There's nothing morally wrong about it. However, I don't believe that makes it natural. The fact remains that reproduction is impossible in a homosexual relationship (as far as I know), and there is a high risk of diseases. The anus was intended for the purpose of excreting waste from our bodies. It was not intended as an orifice for pleasure.

    The only reason that the boy in the NPR story wanted to do "girl" things is because our society has created specific roles that boys and girls are encouraged to participate in. The characteristics of males and females are not inherently passed on. The boy wanting to be Dorothy and/or playing with dolls are simply choices that our society frowns upon. In a society without such strict and "gendered" laws, this wouldn't be an issue. The boy would be allowed to play with whatever toy he wanted without the threat of being socially exiled. Lastly, the children in that story are far younger than the age at which boys and girls begin to feel attraction and arousal for one another. Just because he doesn't want to play with action figures doesn't mean he won't feel attracted towards women. In an ideal society, parents shouldn't (and wouldn't) worry about such things. However, in our society they do, and at an early stage they begin indoctrinating the child into the opposite gender just because he/she seems to be acting that way. The child should be treated without any kind of intervention. The NPR article said that one pair of parents even began calling their son "she," because he exhibited female characteristics. I don't agree with this at all. The child possesses male reproductive organs and should be referred to as such until the time comes when "he" admits that he wishes to be known as a "she."

    What are your thoughts all this?

    EDIT: thought this was the evolution thread; I deleted that beginning part about it.
     
  6. BlackMetalWhiteGuy

    BlackMetalWhiteGuy Manly Man!

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    Many homosexual couples have oral sex exclusively and choose not to engage in anal sex. Also, due to the differences between male and female genetalia, women are at eight times the risk of contracting an STD through unprotected intercourse than a man is. Thus, unless there's some sort of penetration involved, sexual acts between homosexuals are generally safer than between heterosexual couples.
    Although there are certain characteristics that are not predominantly male or female outside of a social context, studies have shown that even in children who have not been raised by gender-biasing parents, male and female children still prefer different types of games and socialize differently, as well.
     
  7. thrashgirl

    thrashgirl DM/IA

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    Why not?
     
  8. waif

    waif Member

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    I have to agree on every point here. However, whether something is "natural" or not is hard to establish, because you have to define natural, which in this case is hard. I don't think it's a significant point, though.

    That's my thought - that the boy was inclined to do some things, and in order to do those things had to accept a certain identity.

    This is true, although I'm hesitant to link gender identity so completely to sexual preference - most, but not all, transsexuals retain their sexual preference, and most are straight. I'm not sure how early it's possible to begin being aware of your own orientation.
    Definitely. It's more or less like really overbearing parents that want their kid to be a doctor or a baseball star or whatever and pressure them to play baseball or excel in biology - that's generally considered bad parenting, so think how much worse it is when applied to something so fundamental to one's sense of self as sexual orientation.

    True, but irrelevant - his point was that reproduction only occurs based on one pairing, and so that is the natural pairing. I agree with this.

    Yeah, there are obviously some important differences between male and female, but also remember that pressure to conform to gender roles comes from everywhere, not just the parents. Also remember that even without meaning to parents can affect this stuff - buying girls dresses and boys shorts means that while boys can play games involving running around, a girl in a skirt can't really join in.
     
  9. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    In this case natural is most likely concluded through sexual reproduction facts, whats typical of the majority, and that straight people naturally find sexual appeal in the opposite sex and not their own. Studies on human sexuality have explained the many features of the sexes that brings out this "carnal knowledge". I believe BMWG's presentations regarding the flys even covers this to a degree with what they said about fermones ? (think thats the right word). While you may not think its significant, others may and that is their right.

    However, as I said way back in the beginning, this same sex attraction as well as sex confusion (for my lack of a better word) does occur and must take place during prenatal development in many cases.

    Just curious as to how it is you know this ? I would reverse the "most but not all" part.

    Overbearing parents - not carved in stone either, many if not most highly successful people have their parents to thank. Granted Im not totally for it but parents that have "pushed" and supported their children have had better results than those of the opposite. "Pushing" ones children is a natural part of parenting and the learning process. In this case we are talking about it does have to be hard but there is still good reason and the parents can not be totally faulted
    I dont think what BMWG said is totally true, but the homosexual community has become more careful due to the obvious and many straight people are still too complacent about it.

    As I recall the "reproduction" was about gays not reproducing? This is somewhat insignifacant due to many having tried to live the straight life(due to social pressure or desire to be "straight"), getting married and having familys, so there has been plenty of reproduction. Similiar maybe as the Bonobos, my understanding was they displayed bisexual and orgy activities.

    I totally dont get the "gender roll, pressure thing" I never felt "pressure", its just something thats established itself over the years. Im not trying to be demeaning by this but I really do think thats just youthful rebellion at work. The girls ran around with us when we were kids, in shorts and sneaks just like us, they still lost interest faster. They climbed the trees, rode the bikes, just not as high or as fast or as far, no one was telling them "girls shouldnt go so high, too fast or too far". I'm not saying thats carved in stone either, the high school I went to just had a female wrestler go all the way to the States in the sectionals which is NO easy feat, props to her! {Thats coed BTW.} Dresses were also becoming rare on girls back when I was in school. That may have turned back some now, especially in the burbs ? Seems like you are saying without pressure girls would not desire to be "pretty" and boys would not desire to be "tuff" looking or "handsome" or display masculine traits ? I dont think that is true. I think it all came about the other way around.
     
  10. WeAreTheLastMen

    WeAreTheLastMen Metacom

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    My parents actually used to buy me both, and allowed me to choose. I now feel that my gender is a very strong part of my identity, even though the skirts were pretty comfortable.
     
  11. Nixuz

    Nixuz New Metal Member

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    So...
    What I have learned about all the trans gendered discussion is:
    I'm not really allowed to ask too many questions to the LGBT community, as they may be offended.
    When I DO ask any questions to the LGBT community, they are supposed to say, "It's just how it is." and I'm supposed to walk away with the knowledge that I have been INFORMED.
    I'm supposed to pretty much either;
    A. Ignore any LGBT people, or....
    B. Smile and confirm my acknowledgment of all LGBT people, regardless of what I think about it.
    According to internet scuttlebutt, B is the only choice.
    I can raise no questions, impart no feeling, or even look at a member of the lbgt community for any reason other than to impart a positive reaction for them and their sexuality.
    This sounds a little too much like the recent Republican debacle for me to deal with it. I WANT understanding, but I will not let myself get drawn into a discussion where the is no room for a dissenting opinion.
    And, apparently, in the trangendered group, there is no room for either questions, or any opinion but their own. There is no room for discussion, because we are all apparently idiots who don't want to UNDERSTAND them, and then do what they want, there is only room for unconditional acceptance.
    Which is really weird.
    I don't believe in many religions because I have too many questions....
    Why should I tolerate something that nobody will discuss openly without the continual diatribe of me "not understanding"?
     
  12. BlackMetalWhiteGuy

    BlackMetalWhiteGuy Manly Man!

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    I'm definitely familiar with parental pressure, as my brother and I probably experienced more pressure from our father to conform to a male role than any other kids who we knew. He used to sit us down and lecture us on the responsibilities of being men even before we were old enough to know what the biological differences between men and women were. I even remember one instance when he was having one of these discussions with me and asked me a trick question. "Are you going to learn to be a man the easy way or the hard way?" to which I replied "the easy way." Apparently disturbed by my weakness or lack of interest he shouted "Wrong! There is no easy way to be a man!" Unfortunately, I was too young to relate to whatever point he was trying to make, so it just discouraged me further from ever wanting to be a "man," in the sense that he understood it. He also believed very strongly that men absolutely could not have long hair, so every couple months we had to have our hair cut whether we liked it or not, which of course we never did, but it wasn't our choice. Once, we even requested that the hair cutting lady leave a "tail" in the back, because pig tails were a popular hair style among the other kids in school. When we got home, we were so proud to show our dad, but he was furious and told us that if we didn't let him cut the tails off that he wasn't going to let us keep our hamsters, so we ended up letting him cut our pig tales off, although we were both crying the whole time. In fact, he continued to enforce his short hair rule until I was in 9th grade, when my mom finally snapped and told him that we were old enough to make our own decisions and that our hair wasn't his choice.

    Now my brother and I are both in our 20s and we both have long hair, despite the counter-conditioning of our father and the fact that none of our other male friends do. But to be honest, I don't feel like I'm any less of a man for it, and I doubt my brother feels any differently than I do.
     
  13. waif

    waif Member

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    Yeah, alright, for now we can use that as a definition, as long as we understand that that doesn't mean biologically natural.
    I dunno about that. It certainly doesn't usually manifest until puberty. I think that the difference (whatever form it may take, I do believe that there is an inherent difference, though I don't think it's solely responsible for LGBT preferences) is present at birth, though.
    That particular piece of info comes from Gunner scott, who is part of a transsexual rights group. I assume it's true, since there's no reason for it not to be.
    Better results as in a higher salary for their children, sure. But that's not equatable to happiness. If a parent's goal (and it should be) is happiness for their children, pressuring them to succeed isn't the best way. It makes them less happy as kids and if they don't succeed, will make them feel shitty. It also may reduce the satisfaction of succeeding, since all they've done is what's expected.

    I wouldn't fault the parents so much as say that they made a mistake. No parents are ever perfect, and everything they do is for the sake of their children, so I can't blame them if they make a mistake. The only parents I would find fault with would be ones that refuse to accept their children; either if their child is lgbt and comes out to them and they refuse to accept it, or if their child perhaps doesn't want to be a fucking doctor.

    I think what he said is true, since he would know about it. But yeah, I think perhaps the queer community is more responsible about this stuff.

    Many used to. At this point I think it's safe to say that gay men do not reproduce. Some lesbians have kids through in vitro, though.
    I definitely think that natural leanings play a significant part. But the pressure can be very subtle. For example, disney movies - pretty much always traditional male-female relationships with the man working/being king/whatever and the woman cooking. Stuff like that. Subtle, but it reinforces gender roles and stuff. And while clothing is moving in a somewhat more unisex direction, just go outside around this time of year; half the girls at my school are dressed like cheap whores (ECFTW).

    What?
    I'm dubious. Are you sure you weren't just wearing your sister's clothes?

    Where'd you get that impression?
    If you read the OP, the whole point of the Day of Dialog is to talk about this stuff.
    Again, hardly. However, if you want to know the scientific basis of homosexuality, the jury's still out.
    Preferably B. Why not? They're human beings.

    As far as their sexuality goes, yes, it's not really nice to look down on them for being gay. But you shouldn't think of them as just a gay guy - they're still complete human beings. You're allowed to not like an LGBT person, just not to not like him because he thinks he's a woman.
    Feel free to express dissent here, as long as you do so respectfully.

    Unconditional acceptance...think about what that implies. It implies accepting someone as a human being regardless of their sexual preference. That seems reasonable to me.

    Heh. For some reason, I consider long hair more manly than short hair. Probably from watching Conan The Destroyer to much. No one is more manly than Conan.
    But seriously, I think rebellion is definitely a factor in some of this.
     
  14. BlackMetalWhiteGuy

    BlackMetalWhiteGuy Manly Man!

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    My brother is a very rebellious, independent person, so this may be the case with him, but I'm extremely laid back so I don't think rebellion really has anything to do with it in my case. I just think long hair is more comfortable and looks better, and women tend to like my long hair better, too :cool:
     
  15. waif

    waif Member

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    Long hair ftw! Looks better on everyone - guys, girls, dogs.
     
  16. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    But it does mean biologically natural, just by its defination alone.

    Many gay people have stated they were always more drawn admirably to same sex, long before puberty or knowledge of the reason. For opposite example I was told I used to always derail from my mother in public, like while shopping in order to follow the prettiest woman around, I didnt know why nor recall doing it. Also you seem to imply that because we have no carnal knowledge until puberty thats when it takes place. This is silly in my opinion the formula was already set in place, for some, others sway from other forces. I can think of many things I used to do in regards to girls long before puberty... cant you ? That was the moral of the story from disputed posted picture way back, the entire tone of that picture is worth a million words.

    Parental guidence - No, not just in salary, their entire attack and outlook on life will be more agressive. like anything else including this topic things can backfire but lacadazical parenting rarely produces near potential outcomes. I'm not supporting this for children with problems but I dont support let them have at it either. Im very glad I was not put in this position nor anyone in my extended family.

    Would be good if gay men and women didnt reproduce but I rather suspect a portion of the gay community will and has surrogate

    "pressure" - seriously I could really go off on this but you have reasons, I'll let you have them. I will say, it seems you wanna imply that movies and TV shows should cross dress children or perhaps have two same sex parents or its pressure. The first is silly and obsurd, and the later I could call reverse pressure which certainly would have the underlying tone that that is how it should be. I would suggest that on TV and out in public the sexs dress as they do and have because thats the way it came to be, not as a means of "pressure"

    Nixus's - impressions were dead nuts, wouldnt take much reading around here to realize this, but myself I eat that kind of stuff up.

    BMWG - Thats a sad story really, I've often watched young boys and wondered what their fathers taught them due to their behavior, not that Im drawing conclusions because you never know. The story about which way to be a man, might have been inapproiate but in reality he had a good point, just unnecessary, all is learned soon enough. The hair thing, we all had that, we'd let it grow fully knowing it was just a matter of time before we were marched off to the barber, it was no big deal because we were all marched off to the barber. Some things you may appreaciate about your fathers teachings one day. I know my father grows in my eyes everyday still and hes been gone 12 yrs now. Enjoy your hair while you have it, in most instances the day comes when it doesnt cooperate well anymore and you begin to look like this .... :zombie: .... lol. Depending on occupation its not always comfortable, I wore my tied back for years but it eventually stopped growing, got thin and wanted to start pointing toward the stars... lol
     
  17. Seditious

    Seditious GodSlayer

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    yea. for my part I think it might be because it's less primp and preen care-how-I-look type metrosexual bullshit. like a rough beard or stubble, rather than a perfectly styled sideburn or gotee. long hair is just natural--do nothing and that's how it is. to have hair as short as a newborn, or perfect skin, or no wrinkles, or any of this 'beauty' stuff is strangely feminine.

    how d'you feel BM dress-up and facepaint fits into the idea of 'manliness'?
     
  18. Seditious

    Seditious GodSlayer

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    Good for who, the democrats, so that the republicans have one less bigotry to rally around?
     
  19. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    :err: wow, wasnt aware it was political :lol:

    [shakes head and chuckles, pondering the implications]
     
  20. waif

    waif Member

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    Maybe biologically common. But natural means something occurs without outside interference. We can either say that transcription errors are natural, in which case homosexuality is natural, or we can say that transcription errors are unnatural, in which case the slightest deviation from our single-celled ancestor would be unnatural.
    Oh, well awareness of gender is definitely in place from my earliest memories, though it grew far more pronounced as I neared puberty...I think the reason lbgt people realize they're what they are around puberty is because that's when they become consciously aware of these differences and their implications.
    I'm gonna suggest we either open a parenting thread (which could either result in an interesting discussion or, much more likely, a lot of bitching) or just abandon this. But my point was more that if happiness is the goal, there's no link between happiness and salary. As far as an aggressive outlook on life, I can't support this but I doubt that would be conducive to happiness in most cases.
    A portion, not a large portion. Anyhow, as far as whether or not they should reproduce, I think you're being an asshole here. They would obviously reproduce with a heterosexual person, meaning that while their children would have an increased chance of a genetic predisposition to homosexuality (going by the fruit fly study), it's not a forgone conclusion. They have just as much right to pollute the world with more children than it can handle as straight people.

    I'm not saying disney should have a transsexual moose as a character anytime soon or whatever. On the other hand, I don't think there should be censorship of LGBT people in the media for 2 reasons:
    1. Censorship sucks 99.999% of the time
    2. LGBT people are part of life, and censoring life is just silly

    Heh, yeah, I guess that's it, but also because long hair is more metal, and metal is very manly.
    As for BM, it's really really silly and I find it difficult to take them seriously except for Gaahl and Nergal, both of whom have figured out how to apply corpsepaint and wear absurd studs in a fashion that just seems plain badass. But Scandinavian metal guys should take advantage of their Scandinavian-ness by growing massive viking beards.
     

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