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Transgender

Discussion in 'The Philosopher' started by waif, Apr 11, 2008.

  1. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    yeah, OK equally less percentage of both would do... lol

    but biologically No, that right has been sacrificed
     
  2. waif

    waif Member

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    The right has been sacrificed biologically?
    Biologically, rights, morals, ethics, etc don't apply. Survival of the fittest, baby.
     
  3. WeAreTheLastMen

    WeAreTheLastMen Metacom

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  4. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    But survival of the fittest leads you right back to beatings

    I was strictly talking if you arent turned on by the opposite sex, you cant "in theory" (not reality) breed, (horney bastards that we are). I've spoken to some that said while they could bring themselves to the act, it didnt feel right... now thats just fuckin weird... made me feel like asking them if it gave them a queer feeling in the pit of their stomach.... lol .... but I am polite
     
  5. Charvelguy

    Charvelguy Member

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    I remember hearing that same show as I listen almost exclusively to NPR while in transit.. so I almost get a dose of it a couple times a day. In this case, the person here is not trying to change the world around them so much as they are trying to change themselves to fit as they want to be.
     
  6. waif

    waif Member

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    No.
    Survival of the fittest is biological terms. In biological terms beating someone up is irrelevant because you aren't removing them from the gene pool. So unless you're fighting over a woman or killing a gay guy, it doesn't matter biologically. When we talk about anti-LGBT violence, we're talking on a social level.

    You know how I feel about you.
     
  7. Nixuz

    Nixuz New Metal Member

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    I don't love human beings, as a rule. Don't ask me to unconditionally accept any sub group of them simply because they have a website and a feel-good campaign.
    Ignorance of societal norms does not, and should not, protect a person from non-violent harassment. I say this in the context of; every transgendered person I have ever met knew full well the reaction they would get from their societal community.
    I appluad those that did what they wanted regardless of that reaction.
    But I abhor the ones that assumed that unconditional acceptance would be not only probable, but took it as a matter of RIGHT, as in their right to never be harassed regardless of their behavior.
     
  8. Möglich

    Möglich Brahman

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    As a transgendered individual (I don't know how many of us have responded to this thread, I honestly didn't take the time to read all 10 pages...) I look forward to people's questions, regardless of how ignorant or misguided they may be or seem. I, personally, appreciate an initial stance of tolerance simply because it allows for better understanding on everyone's behalf.
    It's often difficult to answer questions and you will probably always feel like your questions are unanswered because they are extremely difficult questions to answer. I try to warn people when I explain my case to them that however many questions they may have for me, I have countless more for myself that I wish could be answered. It's more confusing for me than it is for you, I guarantee it. In my opinion, there is plenty of room for questions, but if you're not standing in my shoes (or heels :p) then your opinion might just be based on bad information.. Opinions should always be tentative and ready to change upon new findings.
    I've been told that I am making "the wrong choice" though the person 'respects me and hopes I find the right path.' This sort of opinion is frustrating and really doesn't leave any room for me to help them understand, and generally turns me away from wanting to associate with them at all. For the record, if I had the choice, I'd choose to have my sex and gender match up. It never was a choice for me, and nobody pushed this on me, to my knowledge. My brother came out just fine in pretty much the same environment...

    Ask your questions. I'm ready for em.
     
  9. forbidden fruit

    forbidden fruit ...is always best

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    Well after 10 pages, finally there is someone even remotely qualified to respond to this thread...
    The rest of us are bound to argue on behalf of science (undecided), or morals/ethics (personal), hence 10 pages of ramblings one way or the other... or both...
    This will probably mean fuck all to you dude, but there are people who are cool for you to be whoever you want, or feel the need to be. Including myself.
    I figure anybody else who takes offense to your lifestyle simply lacks the conviction to change their own lot in life, & are bitter because of it... and/or they're just plain bigots.

    You're not hurting anybody else, your family & friends should support you regardless, so all you gotta do is make peace with yo'self & do what feels right & makes you happy... simple!! :)

    I suppose my only questions are...
    How old were you when you realised something was different?
    How have your family & friends dealt with it?
     
  10. SentinelSlain

    SentinelSlain Suck my joined date.

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    As well as feeling more comfortable when adopting the gender you are inside do you also have some kind of natural feelings like to do with reproduction or to do with how the opposite sex should act around you or something? no offence.
     
  11. Möglich

    Möglich Brahman

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    forbidden, you have the sentiment right on. I'm not hurting anyone else by the status of my gender. The possible 'effects' (more like natural responses) that a transgender person has to the issue can sometimes distress people--- for instance a 3rd grade boy just recently officially started attending school as a 3rd grade girl. They created a unisex bathroom in one hallway so that she could use a bathroom without causing distress to other children, and the teacher (i talked to her online) said that NONE of the children gave her any trouble about it. the problem was that their parents were furious. This instance obviously makes the matter more complicated, but nobody should be mad at the child for feeling the way she does. Anyone who is offended by the way someone feels inside, as you said, "simply lacks the conviction to change their own lot in life, & are bitter because of it... and/or they're just plain bigots."

    As for actually fully realizing the fact.. I have been aware of the difference for as long as I can remember. I'm almost 20 now, but until I was 17 or 18 I had a suspicion that maybe I had had a sex change when I was a baby and nobody had told me about it. I was fully capable of describing the way I felt but didn't have a label for it until last year, when I typed some of my thoughts into google and found forums where other people had expressed similar sentiments. Other people responded with stuff like, "you may be transgender. check this site out for more info."


    My family for the most part is unaware of it (to my knowledge). I told my brother through his fiance, and told them never to mention it because it's really uncomfortable to talk about with them. I desperately want them to know, but it's extremely hard for me to even hint at the topic. I haven't even laid the foundation for a conversation about it by explaining to them as-a-matter-of-factly that gender and sex are different. I think I'm leaving hints that will help make the realization easier.. My dad has facebook and can easily see pictures of me in a dress and heels, and I don't hide the fact that I shave my legs from them.
    As for my friends, when I explained it to them, the response was generally, "ohhhhh.. that explains so much!" All those years of preferring Barbies and My Little Pony to G.I. Joe and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were then easy to understand. If any friend of mine couldn't accept the way I am, I don't want them as a friend. I'd rather be alone than faking it.
    I do have a girlfriend. She has known about it from the start. We were high school friends and, at the time, I didn't know about being transgender either. As we got to know each other about this time last year (after a year of not hanging out), I had told her and she, like other people, said that it explained a good deal about me and made perfect sense. She is sometimes (rarely) frustrated by how 'girly' I am, which is understandable. Most relationships need a sense of balance and if it's skewed too heavily towards the female side, (imo) parts of our relationship needs might not get satisfied. I think that problem will be solved as I start seeing a professional about the matter and don't have to come to her with problems she's not trained to deal with.



    JAGE, it should be recognized that sexuality (sexual attraction) and gender at TOTALLY separate issues. I identify myself as about 70-80% female inside, and am attracted to both males and females-- based not on looks but on how they would work with me emotionally. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pansexuality )
    Imagine if I were 75% female inside, but only attracted to girls. Would I be 75% lesbian and 25% straight? I don't know the answer there. So as for sexual preference, gender doesn't play any role in the equation.
    You did mention, though, natural feelings about things like reproduction. I catch myself a lot of the time thinking about pregnancy-- like how I'd take care of my body, contemplating the length of time I'd allow the child to breast feed, etc.. When I snap out of it and realize that none of that will ever happen, it makes me sad. I think it's part of the maternal instinct I have.. A lot of my friends tell me that I wouldn't want to be a girl solely because of the issue of the period, but I have thought about it and believe I would be okay with the whole package. If it meant I was born a natural girl, I'd accept the bleeding, cramps, etc., and during pregnancy; the morning sickness, the extra nipples, everything.

    As far as the opposite sex acting around me, the only real difference that I've noticed is due to a combination of things.. I have been raised as a boy and inside the boy culture. I generally know how boys think and act and can fit in just fine, faking it as a boy. On the other hand, I understand on a different level the way that girls think. The insight this gives me is really helpful for dealing with relationship problems with my friends. The reason this is my response to your question is because from my point of view, I see both sexes as ridiculous in their own ways at times. I think guys can be huge dicks and girls can be such bitches-- and I wish they'd change very often.
    I don't think anyone should change the way they act around me simply because of my gender.. With the exception of instances when a group of guys I know were talking about women in a debasing manner.. I grumpily reminded them that they were in the presence of one and to stfu.

    Don't worry about offending me. I appreciate the 'no offense' but even if your questions were 'ignorant' or something (they weren't) the only way you can bother me by asking a question is to be stubbornly closed minded. I am a transgendered, pansexual, Buddhist, vegan, an intern at the Department of Commerce in Washington, and I have facial piercings.. If I wasn't prepared for ignorant, angry, or other sort of questions, I'd be a goner already.
     
  12. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    This is what I was talking about, and the parents have a right to be concerned. Not only that it shows how a school system has to side step and eat the added expence to cater to special needs.

    This is also a kind of ignorance and what I was talking about as trying to use a guilt trip on those that dont want exposure or especially exposure to their children. Has nothing to do with lack of conviction or a "need to change" "their lot" or "bigotry"... all words aimed at dehumanizing those without the problem.

    The rest of your two posts are good and verify much of what I have said.
     
  13. Möglich

    Möglich Brahman

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    Your first response reminds me of a lot of the static I get from people about my demanding vegetarian and vegan options at college cafeterias. While some choose to pretend it's not the trend, more and more people will be demanding these (food) accommodations. We can get with the times or we can try and hold it back. I think catering to special needs is an important part of our culture. Even ancient human remains from 100,000 years ago show that we like to make accommodations for the less able for one reason or another. Whether or not everyone likes it, there will be SOME solution to integrate people who want to express themselves in the way of that third-grader into schools.
    I understand the dread of an added expense. I really do. I wonder, in this instance, what is the significant extra and damaging expense. From my informal interview of the teacher, the concern the parents had was based on the fear of exposing their children to such a queer person. There's no evidence to suggest that this would have any more of a psychological impact on the children than integrating blacks and whites in school. The parent's disapproval seems very similar to me to the race issue. Their concern is based on ignorance rather than focusing on real problems. I can admit that difficulties will arise from this sort of integration, but those difficulties are not the same as what these parents were protesting.



    As for your second comment, note that I was referring to people who go after someone just for feeling a certain way. I don't think people should be discriminated against just because they think or feel a certain thing. My statement does not imply they express it openly. Also, I don't see it as a problem :D
     
  14. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    You can see it that way or it could be seen as get with the program and rather than "hold it back" "lets keep it simple".

    I cant say but if its a thrid bathroom its alot. Well into the billions across the country. Tax payers which you will become one one day have been up in arms for years over the recent extremely accelerated school budgets. One recent similiarity was that schools were mandated to have a elevator to accomodate handycap... which is fine but many schools dont have any. In the case of our small country school, $10,000 was spent just for an "engineer" to draw the proposal for a two level elevator... we have no wheelchair children and it only amounts to an easy way for the custodial staff to get their mop buckets from one floor to the next...... I have no idea what the final construction costs were... surely they went over budget. You should be aware that per student a school budget exceeds that of college tuition... not entirely the fault of students.
     
  15. Möglich

    Möglich Brahman

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    I definitely see the "lets keep it simple" point of view. I think our points of view may just be diametrically opposed here.. Part of me wants to base my argument on the fact that it's not that simple, so we can't force it to be simple just because we want to. That statement isn't expressing exactly how I feel but it is in the ball park. I don't know the solution to keep it simple and still be healthy for the most people. I'm sure a compromise is in order.

    The bathroom was not created but, rather, a new sign was placed on the door (for the record). I see your point, though.

    I would look at in terms of "what ifs" What if a child was denied every education opportunity possible because their legs didn't work? Moreover, what if a child somehow died in the school-- a death that could have been prevented with a couple thousand dollars worth of renovations. I realize thousands of dollars is no amount to be throwing around, but compared to the cost of being sued for the death it's not that much.

    Since people do get killed over their gender and sexuality... Imagine if a death could be deemed 'clearly preventable.' I don't know how this would play out legally, but suppose little boys started getting mugged, raped, or killed, in the boy's bathrooms because they dress, look, and talk like girls and are forced to use the facility matching their sex, rather than gender.

    It's a sticky situation and I don't know how to resolve it. However, I think you helped prove my point in one matter. When considering the added expense of allowing people to express their gender in schools, it came down to the practical and monetary issues. Assuming these can be kept to a reasonable minimum, the upside of allowing free gender expression greatly outweighs the downside. No?
     
  16. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    As I stated many times in this topic, prior to your arrival (lucky you), the concern of straight parents of hopefully straight children is impressionable influences on children... which there is no denying are highly impressionable. So your side is concerned about expression and our side is concerned about impression. You mentioned black/white integration, while I certainly support it within its district and its a non issue today... we can see white kids wanting to act in the black culture. Before anyone starts on the bigotry trip. We can also see black students taking to and fitting into the white culture and they are much more highly shunned by their "piers" than whites are. That is just something I wish both sides would get over.

    That is why in regards to this topic I have said a compromise and understanding on both sides be met, yet it seems its all up to the straight people to make the accommodations. Or in the vegatarian example as well, you say "healthy" we say "BS". As for crippled getting "killed" in school, I question the odds as well as have the people die everyday philosophy and am so tired of the insurance companies and lawsuits and the cost they have placed on all to bare as we cater, cater, cater. There are other means to get the education than running from floor to floor and common sence tell us not to stand to close to the edge of a cliff. Its no matter its a done deal now but in my eyes it was just more mamzy pamsy BS. Im just one that thinks humanity is getting way to soft and needs to toughen back up and walk the walk and quit talking the talk, nothing in life is handed to you once you are on your own. The down side is everywhere.
     
  17. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    Oh, and how things are resolved are in time. Also mentioned earlier, alot less pushing (in your face) would go along ways toward curbing ill feelings. Everyone is getting put on the spot to dance "now" and this creates tension and resentment.
     
  18. Möglich

    Möglich Brahman

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    Very good points. The only thing I can assume, since I've grown up in no other culture than the Washington DC area, is that American society (at least where I am) breeds a sense of entitlement. There has never been a lack of protest marches a couple of miles from my home, and the way the air is charged with politics... I'm not organizing my thoughts very well, but the point I mean to get at is that-- for almost no reason at all, I feel like people should be free to express themselves at what can clearly be interpreted as other's expense. At my foundation I try and shoot for the greatest possible good, which sometimes means silencing a little guy for the vast majorities sake, but when empathizing with your point of view, there seems little basis for my case. I suppose my ONLY argument is that the impression made on the children is negligible, or even beneficial---- a position that I can not support or defend due to lack of evidence one way or another.
    ------I think the best solution would be to find an appropriate time to allow the expression. Perhaps even middle school is too early, but high school? Should parents be objecting to someone's expression as a high schooler on the basis that their 'child' is going to be influenced in a negative way?
    While rare (from my experience) for kids to come out of the closet in elementary school, it's more common for people to announce that they are gay in high school. I can imagine parents having a similar response if somehow there were an extremely obvious homosexual in their child's 3rd grade class-- that this would somehow make a negative impression on their child and should be suppressed. I don't know the merit to that theory, but won't even try to argue because it is a reasonable concern in some sense.
    I think by high school, though, and MAYBE even middle school, Children have gotten past the point of being so easily influenced and are capable of dealing with a transgender in their midst.


    In response to the fact that nothing in life gets handed to you-- yes. I agree. However, based on my own experience and talking to other people (and hell- look at suicide statistics...) queer people seem to get shafted from the get go in a sense. We're not looking for hand-outs as much as a level playing field. I'm not trying to say that it's the worst hand to be dealt in the world, but it's just a handicap that we have to deal with.



    On the other hand, you should consider the fact that America was founded on personal liberty, and that in my opinion should include the freedom to wear a dress, lipstick, and change your name from James to Jamie if you feel like it, regardless of gender. If some random guy felt like experimenting, not because they're transgender or anything, just for the heck of it--- to dress and act like a woman for a week or a month or a year... Could public schools tell him that he's not allowed to wear a dress because it confuses other children?




    While I agree with your point about taking time to solve issues-- Sometimes those "now"ers really help push the iceberg along. Without those Nowers, everyone will sit back and say-- this problem will resolve itself. OR maybe we can bring about the changes we want through our votes. yeah right.
     
  19. waif

    waif Member

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    Not sure how much expense is created by changing the sign on a bathroom. Also, it was the school's decision to create the unisex bathroom rather than just have the kid use the girl's room.

    I question this attitude - why do we need to toughen up? "Hard times breed hard people" or whatever, but are these hard times? Despite the economy, the fragile state of world affairs, etc, for the middle class things are pretty much better than ever - there's no need to toughen up, we can cater to wheelchair kids and gay people.

    Okay, well first off, obviously general misanthropy will be counter-productive to eliminating prejudice. However, if you hate everyone equally, that's fine. As far as non-violent harassment, our nation was founded on the principle of non-violent harassment. The problem is only when it gets violent, as far as I'm concerned. There's no way to force people to accept this stuff - that will come in time. As far as people expecting acceptance or not to be harassed, to be honest I think that's something that ideally they should be able to accept, but that realistically is out of the question.

    Thank you. It's awesome to have someone who knows what they're talking about. I'm sorry to hear that you're having trouble coming out to your family. Good luck with that.

    Are you out at work, or do you dress straight in the workplace?
     
  20. razoredge

    razoredge Member

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    We already covered this... days late and far short

    Because everyone has become a bunch of pussys.... I said nothing about "hard times"

    Yes, and he confirmed alot of the stuff you gave me shit about.
     

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