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what difference does it make?

Discussion in 'Russian Metal Scene' started by metu, May 21, 2003.

  1. Sonm

    Sonm Curse You All Men...

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    Metu, now Russia is not really different from the US... I guess in Russia we have even more freedom... You can sing whatever you want, you can say whatsofuckingever you want and nobody would care, and that's pity. Sometimes people say a very dangerous bullshit. Also you can drink beer and vodka on the streets and nobody will tell you a word except for a request to share that with him :lol:
    The main problem is that like everywhere there are too many morons... And the second one is that people do not work, because they either do not won't or can not... Lazy asses...
    Everything except for that is just fine - all conditions for making your business (if you are clever enough), for earning money and making music. But as I was saying before - mentality is the hardest thing to change. So it's still mostly from Soviet times...
    OFFTOPIC. Personally, I consider Puting a very clever and wise person, and Kalashnikov is a damn good machine-gun!!
    Cheers fellow:)
    But you can ask further. It's quite interesting:)
     
  2. MistGONE

    MistGONE Member

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    I hope you’ll excuse me people for interrupting your discussion; it is just happen that I live in USA for a few years only, but I’ve been in different locations of it and had talked different people. So I’d like to make a point on America/ Russia difference. For my opinion, America now more and more looks like Soviet Union was. I mean that bureaucracy plays in that country way too big role; you need a “paper” for almost everything in here man. Like I send a paper to government agency in ( Offic. I need one paper) they send it back to me saying that I must add three more papers to that paper(not explaining exactly why). Where the hell they were before? And about fair government. Real life example: the person sends documents to change his visa (official time rate is 3 month – 6 month) and he gets answer that they can’t proceed his papers due blah, blah… and he’s gotta wait 6 month, UNLESS he’ll pay 1000 $ and then they do visa in 3 month. Is THAT DEMOCRACY? :mad:
    And I thing about MTV, I heard that in Russia once a week there metal program on MTV with good videos in it (correct me of I wrong) Yeah here we do have “Headbanging Ball” but videos doesn’t sound underground metal stuff does.

    Ok, I know that you probably would say “we talking here metal scene and that person gets in with some other stuff”, well say what u have to say...

    P.S. Some time ago my friend bought a Jacket in local supermarket – made in Russia note said. Now, I feel happy. Long Live Russsia. :wave:
     
  3. Sonm

    Sonm Curse You All Men...

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    Same here, Mist, fellow! I live in Holland but soon to move back to Russia, fortunately I was clever enough not to get my citizemship in here. Recently I've been to my old institute and I am fucking jealous!! They have no computer older than Pentium4 and no CRT monitors at all, only LDS, new equipment, even their own plotter for the lab of 6 people!!!! While here I still use Windows NT4, I am not allowed to change anything, I have no good current sourse and I have to spend weeks ordering simple RESISTORS!!!! There is no way to work... Western Europe sucks! And I also need papers and papers and papers!! You won't believe but I even had a paper that I am not able to get the other paper as a substitution for the first one and additional support for another paper which was excepted but then appeared to be completely useless because the guy in the goverment didn't know the LAW!!!! Unbelievable...Searching through the whole country I am not able to find a good guitar!! So I had to order it from the US, but then it took three days to send the money via Western Union... I am deeply sorry for Europe, which turning into their old dead enemy - Soviet Union...
     
  4. metu

    metu Member

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    Great posts! Thank you both very much. You're not interrupting at all, Mist. Please keep posting. Sonm, those last two lines of your first post really hit the spot. While I'm at it, please post some more Shell Shock.

    Comparing the US today with the Soviet Union is a very interesting angle which I had not considered. Our central government is getting a lot more powerful. In addition to harrassment of immigrants, we have far more elecronic surveilance and people can be arrested with no evidence for an undisclosed amount of time. Also, on the tv, where most of us get our news, the reporting is becoming increasingly isolated.

    Meanwhile I've seen Russia called an oligarchy just a step away from fuedalism. The phrase, "in Russia, everything's for sale" is firmly in my mind. From my understanding, Putin is trying to strengthen the central government and finding it very difficult. The polarisation of wealth is the main problem of capitalism and marx really was on to something. The problem is that the only way Putin can get that power is through the mass media which is run by money. Therefore, a president can't make enemies of the richest people and you get what we have here, which is getting more and more dangerous every day. What do you think of our campaigns so far, Mist?

    It sucks so much that so many people in both of our countries see things in black and white and refuse to look into the grey area.

    I read an interesting article recently interviewing an old married couple from some town in south-west Russia where the main factory had been shut down. The husband was complaining about the way capitalism had screwed over their town and the fact that their daughter had to move away. He went on and on about the problems, but when he started to propose some sort of solution, it was leaning towards communism and his wife would cut him off and say something like 'we already tried that. It didn't work.' When they were asked who they would vote for, the husband said that he didn't know and the wife said 'not the communists'.

    So Russia has more free speech than we do? I believe that. We have a very powerful group of right wing Christians in this country who sort of monitor our morals. From what I understand Russia has not congregated around orthedoxy very thoroughly. From what I've heard and read, there are a bunch of old paganist and shaamanist movements along with some sort of modernism which I don't understand. I hate the christian right with a passion, though. They've got far too much power. I think you're better off with the full on free speech. What sort of messages concern you?

    As for that $1000 to speed up the process, no, that's not democracy, that's capitalism. PLEASE don't confuse the two.

    Are there any songs about Trotsky?

    Please debate any or all my points.
     
  5. Lex

    Lex Buckaroo

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    Hmm... I don't think so. Many people want and may work but they can't do it for many reasons. People got the freedom but none knows what to do with that. Soviet iron order and total control turned into chaos that now (under the artful direction of mr. P or someone who stays behind him) is going back to the dictatorship again. Slowly but unhesitatingly. Everyithing changes every day, no any stability.:ill:
    Concerning the music it means that you need to be very very strong, indomitable and extremely persistent if you want to be a successful musician.

    The natural selection works without remorse here, man... ;)


    God created Russia to train the faithful (c) Frank Herbert (almost)
     
  6. Sonm

    Sonm Curse You All Men...

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    2Lex...
    I agree only with your last statement, man. I've been through everything myself and I am almost 30 years old. Talked to many different people from many different countries and finally got to very interesting conclusions... I'll try to build up a good and politically correct answer in my next post... Sorry, have jobs to do.
    Cheers
     
  7. MistGONE

    MistGONE Member

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    Ok people I’m about to try to discuss freedom of speech in US/Russia. As far as I remember that’s true that in Russia you could say some really anti-government stuff and nothing much would happen to you. However, as I see it there is a big difference between POTENTIAL of your speech in Russia and US. Consider example: Let’s start with USA. A person starts going in different public places and saying something like this “Bush is bad, Osama is good because blah, blah, blah” What would happen with that person? He will be held by authorities for sure. Why? It would happen because that person have a potential to create some kind of organization which in its way can start some anti-government demonstrations and so on. And the “worst” thing is that some people in the government could later “unite” with this org. Altogether they can do some pressure on government. Of course it’s known that anti-war Iraq demonstration didn’t stop “war” with Iraq. But hey they were just a lot of different people with same opinions but not united by any org. When it’s organized, it’s usually different. Like the workers of Chrysler (car assembling plant) who didn’t received enough pay set a strike and got some of their problems resolved. Like, Martin Luther King, he was one man who created org. which changed a lot of things(I think Metu you know about racism in 1940’s years in USA).

    Now try apply same situation to Russia. Person saying “Puti is bad, chechen rebels are good” Will that person be held? No. Why? Because what can he really do? Ok, he can create some org. So What? In Russia there is a problem with opinions. A lot of people have a lot of opinions and everybody want his/her opinions to look at. So right now there a lot of such org. in Russia, but they can’t really do any pressure on government due their inner problems. Actually I would like to know your opinion Sonm about POTENTIAL of freedom speech in Russia. As for strikers, I remember that year ago or more the miners came to Moscow and set their strike there for almost month or even more near on of the central government buildings and they didn’t got anything from government from their strike…

    As for campaigns Metu, I’ll post my answer next time.

    There is a lot different things to discuss about Russia/America good and bad soI’ll try to get some of them in future posts…

    p.s. Okay Metu calling speed up process democracy or not was my mistake. I just wanted to say that such speed up option more looks like “delicate” way of taking bribe, because that person who needed this visa will not recieve any money for working period while he was changing his visa and then 3 or 6 month waiting time is really counts...
     
  8. metu

    metu Member

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    Well, the thing is that if a US citizen's position was supporting Osama, then he or she wouldn't be invited to any forums where his or her voice would have any impact. The government probably would not arrest them unless they were trying to actually encourage terrorist attacks. If they were speaking that sort of message to the Muslim communitees, they would be arrested and thoroughly interrogated. Basically, they have to have some sort of organization.

    For US citizens, it seems more like the problem with buying Western albums in the Soviet Union. It's not so much that they would be arrested as it is that people would want to stay away from them as they've been tagged 'anti-American.'

    For non-citizens, things are very different, as you understand with all your paperwork. They're just keeping tabs on you. I understand that it's a pain in the ass and I fully agree that it's bullshit that $3000 can hurry up the process for you. To be honest, though, I'm in full favor of more surveilance on immigrants and aliens. Most Americans are. It's rediculous what we had before. It's rediculous what we have now, but it's a step in the right direction, I think.

    I'm just going to sidestep your comments on the anti-war protests and the Chrysler strike, if you don't mind.

    I would like to mention that Dr King and the civil rights movement were in the 60s. If anyone tells you that they know who killed Dr King, they're full of shit. Watch out for those East Coast liberals. Many are more narrow-minded than they seem. :]
     
  9. metu

    metu Member

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    P.S. Maybe you shouldn't tell us about your views on the campaign yet. Maybe you should give it about a year. You ain't seen nothin' yet! :}
     
  10. Sonm

    Sonm Curse You All Men...

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    Cool! That's how it goes... Shit I still have no time to post my ideas, but I promise - I will! Soon:)) the main problem that Russian can see their country only from within, while I live in Holland and can see it the same way western people do except for the fact that they have never taken an intrinsic look at Russia!
    That's rather funny tho and I'll try to discuss that, gentlemen!
    Cheers
     
  11. metu

    metu Member

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    I'm looking forward to that post.

    How would a Chechen nationalist band be recieved by the public?
     
  12. Sonm

    Sonm Curse You All Men...

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    Okay, now I have a little time to post what I think.
    First, the freedom of speech in Russia.
    Somehow, Russians forgot about times, when saying "Maybe Stalin is wrong" meant prison or death penalty for them. Nearly nobody remembers that time. Assuming the fact that they weren't born yet doesn't help much, coz everybody should learn his own hystory as well make conclusions about that in order not to fell into the same pit for a second time. And what do we have now? Nowadays you can say even too much. You can blame Putin, you can do whatever you want, but that doesn't mean democracy. And that's the mistake Russians make all the time. Because democracy means first of all an open and transparent society! You can trust to others if they do trust you. Russians DO NOT understand that. The freedom was given to them, but the immediately started to desire more! Social freedom doesn't mean full freedom! and that's exactly what Russians can not grasp yet.
    The capitalism is still too young in Russia. For instance, ask anybody about any federal law! I bet that only one out of thousand would answer you at least something. And then tell me, how can you use your freedom if you do not know its limits?? HOW?!! And if it has no limits then here you gooooo man! That would be called ANARCHY! When Russians were given freedom, they were given incomprehencibly much. It's like a lion, which was fattened in its cage would come back once being released, because it is not able to accomodate itself in a new world! great time will pass before it can live providing itself. The nature of any social mechanism is very complicated but Russians want to live in a new world with OLD rules. And that doesn't work...
    That how it goes. Russians never took serious care about money! Thousands factories were producing crap but everybody got paid for that! And now they complain that they have no money despite they work. Let's ask something - who needs what you produce? You can work hard, but if you make shit you'll never be successful guy! And you have to work hard! Because the social body is new and it's weak! Now add to that the size of the country and tell me what kind of moron would expect that everything will be changed within one year? That's BULLSHIT! I think at least 50 years os needed in order to see things are starting to get better! 30 years of stable unremitting toil before we can reach strong economy and social and financial security.
    That's why I adore what Putin is doing. He's damn clever guy. He pushes everything very softly. Here and then there, because we all saw (but a few made conclusions) what would happen if you try to turn this giant country at once. Gorbachyov and Eltsin did that... ass holes! Moreover, Russians are very concervative in a sense of a govermental authorities and that's not surprising. Several generations had Tsars and then dictators which caused a complete dis-consolidation of the sociery as well as atrophy of an ability to make decisions! Nobody was responsible for anything! And that's how it goes now! Russians want freedom without responsibilities, which is a contradiction. I see how it is changes... but slowly! Very slowly...
    Cheers
    As for Chechen band - well no problem with that.
     
  13. metu

    metu Member

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    I see your point. I read articles and listen to lectures about the problems of Russian industry. The factories aren't advancing. Your posts shed new light as to why. If I may sum it up, it's a lack of progressive thought. For my understanding, the solution to this problem lies in progressive education. Of course, this leads me to questions.

    How is the education in Russia today? Is there better education for the children of richer people? Do you see an influence of the European structure? Is college affordable for an average working family? Did you learn that the leaders of the Russian Revolution were Lenin and Trotsky or Lenin and Stalin?

    We always did like Gorby over here. I, for one, still do. It seems like he was doing the right thing in trying to ease the country into the world market. He wasn't one of these fools who thought that once you declare a democracy the problems are over. I think, though, that he did the one thing that no leader of the Russian people can ever do. He looked weak.

    Putin, if nothing else, is a very strong leader. I understand the Russian people's attraction to him. A strong leader is exactly what that country needs. I understand him making Chechnya an example because Russia could still fall into a full on feudalism. If Chechnya is successful, then every region may very well declare independence. (Honestly, if Russia collapses completely, we're all thoroughly fucked. Game over.)

    I will never forget that the first government offering help after the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001 was the Russian government headed by Vladimir Putin.

    Still, he's very dangerous. I couldn't agree more that Russians should be taught and reminded of Stalin and his ways. But isolation is a huge problem and EVERYONE from everywhere needs to look at other countries histories and current events. Most Russians are probably aware if not familiar with the problems of democracy in Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan. I think that they should also be looking into the present situations in Cambodia and Haiti. When Putin starts having potential political rivals arrested, you've got to be very careful.

    I, also, think that every country trying to establish a stable republic should read about American history starting with the colonies.

    What sort of history do they teach in Russian schools? How are the music programs? Where do most Russians get their news?

    Mist, I don't mean to be an asshole about the election thing. Give your opinion now if you want. I was just thinking that it might have more impact as a well thought out summary when it's all over. One topic which seems to be timeless is that of religion. So far, how do you view the place of religion in the US and how it compares to Russia? Let me get you started. Janet Jackson's tit is immoral because...
     
  14. Sonm

    Sonm Curse You All Men...

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    Hey metu!
    Glad to read your post... I'll answer your questions, but you are not entirely right about some things. I hope to explain it to you later. Cheers!
     
  15. MistGONE

    MistGONE Member

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    hmm, I'm really looking forward that topic...
    well... I agree with Sonm at most things except for Mr. P.
    I'll post some stuff about it and about compain US/Russia hopefully in copuple of days
     
  16. Sonm

    Sonm Curse You All Men...

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    What's wrong with Putin? :) I saw no political neither macroeconomical mistakes he made.
     
  17. MistGONE

    MistGONE Member

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    Finally got some time to write...
    Ok what is wrong with Putin Hah?

    There three things/questions I'd like to point out.

    First, It would be nice if you Sonm could point out a few reforms that Mr. P has started since beginning of his presidency. (notice word started) Or you think that Russia doesn't need any reforms at all?... :err:

    Second, Chechen war, it started around 10 years ago and it still on. What MR. P did in order to balance war situation in Chechnya? I don't see much change between 1996 and now. Well, one can say they are trying do elections now. Do elections at state of war, not official but still war, it is something I don't get. The only thing I've seen putin to say is that he would destroy Chechen bandits. 10 years ago somebody already said so - result... :erk:

    Third point why I don't approve putin, is weak cause it's not really against him. Anyway here it is: Mr. P is KGB major. I don't want to say that KGB is such a bad organization or something like that. It's just that as I see it people from KGB usually don't do compromise. Putin seems to follow that rule (I didn’t see any political comprom. done by him where it could've been done, us-Russia and Iraq) correct me if I'm wrong.
    Now good side of KGB affection - is like you said putin moves everything slowly. I think he's doing so because in KGB mistakes are not forgiven.

    Waiting for you response now....

    As for Metu, I'd like you to excuse me but I still need more time to post about campaign stuff.
     
  18. metu

    metu Member

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    Of this one fact, and this one fact alone, I am certain.
     
  19. Sonm

    Sonm Curse You All Men...

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    :lol:
    I'll post later:)
     
  20. MistGONE

    MistGONE Member

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    Hey Sonm What's up!
    From other threads it seems to me that u are in depression....
    come on, don't push it yet there will be time for lonless ant the end....
    Hope u post u aswer about putin...

    Metu asked some questions in posts before I'll try post some aswears in coming week...
     

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