Who you leaning towards in 2008 Presidential Election?

J. · Jun 10, 2008

make me pay less into the system and give me better coverage and you've got my vote.

oh and make the dollar more valuable you oaf

lurch70 · Jun 10, 2008

there is a "flipside" to the Universal Healthcare system ... who and how much will the doctors get paid that will accept it? or will ALL doctors be forced to do so?

how does that aspect of it work?

I remember in Romania back in the red days ... doctors accpeted cartons of Kent as payment ... it guaranteed you pretty much a months worth of excellent service.

lurch70 · Jun 10, 2008

swizzlenuts said: ↑

This made me laugh quite a bit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9izhjnaLa3M&eurl
Click to expand...

i can't imagine anyone voting for this momo ... we're fucking doomed.
when was this huddah recorded?

lurch70 · Jun 10, 2008

hahaha ... how did I miss this

Hell Mike · Jun 10, 2008

TheGreatDeceiver said: ↑

It's not like we can just go "Here you go poor people and illegal immigrants, free health care for you even though many of you might not contribute at all." THAT is the fucking mindless socialism that you guys are ranting against.
Click to expand...

That would just be plain stupid, and it's not what I think would be best. Actually, I personally think Sweden doesn't have enough commercial options in many areas, such as healthcare, but there should always be a good alternative for all in need. Everything isn't black or white. and Sweden does this shit well - learn from us, however we do it.

skeptik · Jun 10, 2008

We can certainly learn from your soccer team, as ours sucks ass. 2-0.

dorian gray · Jun 10, 2008

lurch70 said: ↑

there is a "flipside" to the Universal Healthcare system ... who and how much will the doctors get paid that will accept it? or will ALL doctors be forced to do so?

how does that aspect of it work?

I remember in Romania back in the red days ... doctors accpeted cartons of Kent as payment ... it guaranteed you pretty much a months worth of excellent service.
Click to expand...

Another good point.

lurch70 · Jun 10, 2008

he's out on this alone ...

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/06/10/sot.mccain.veto.beer.cnn

WhiteBeastofWotan · Jun 10, 2008

As he awkwardly grabs for his sharpee

Krigloch the Furious · Jun 10, 2008

Climb Thar Hill · Jun 10, 2008

So in another words this thread is stating we're fucked for another 4yrs

WhiteBeastofWotan · Jun 10, 2008

Man, I love Ann Coulter.

lurch70 · Jun 11, 2008

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/11/opinion/11friedman.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Obama on the Nile

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Published: June 11, 2008

This column will probably get Barack Obama in trouble, but that’s not my problem. I cannot tell a lie: Many Egyptians and other Arab Muslims really like him and hope that he wins the presidency.

I have had a chance to observe several U.S. elections from abroad, but it has been unusually revealing to be in Egypt as Barack Hussein Obama became the Democrats’ nominee for president of the United States.

While Obama, who was raised a Christian, is constantly assuring Americans that he is not a Muslim, Egyptians are amazed, excited and agog that America might elect a black man whose father’s family was of Muslim heritage. They don’t really understand Obama’s family tree, but what they do know is that if America — despite being attacked by Muslim militants on 9/11 — were to elect as its president some guy with the middle name “Hussein,” it would mark a sea change in America-Muslim world relations.

Every interview seems to end with the person I was interviewing asking me: “Now, can I ask you a question? Obama? Do you think they will let him win?” (It’s always “let him win” not just “win.&#8221

It would not be an exaggeration to say that the Democrats’ nomination of Obama as their candidate for president has done more to improve America’s image abroad — an image dented by the Iraq war, President Bush’s invocation of a post-9/11 “crusade,” Abu Ghraib, Guantánamo Bay and the xenophobic opposition to Dubai Ports World managing U.S. harbors — than the entire Bush public diplomacy effort for seven years.

Of course, Egyptians still have their grievances with America, and will in the future no matter who is president — and we’ve got a few grievances with them, too. But every once in a while, America does something so radical, so out of the ordinary — something that old, encrusted, traditional societies like those in the Middle East could simply never imagine — that it revives America’s revolutionary “brand” overseas in a way that no diplomat could have designed or planned.

I just had dinner at a Nile-side restaurant with two Egyptian officials and a businessman, and one of them quoted one of his children as asking: “Could something like this ever happen in Egypt?” And the answer from everyone at the table was, of course, “no.” It couldn’t happen anywhere in this region. Could a Copt become president of Egypt? Not a chance. Could a Shiite become the leader of Saudi Arabia? Not in a hundred years. A Bahai president of Iran? In your dreams. Here, the past always buries the future, not the other way around.

These Egyptian officials were particularly excited about Obama’s nomination because it might mean that being labeled a “pro-American” reformer is no longer an insult here, as it has been in recent years. As one U.S. diplomat put it to me: Obama’s demeanor suggests to foreigners that he would not only listen to what they have to say but might even take it into account. They anticipate that a U.S. president who spent part of his life looking at America from the outside in — as John McCain did while a P.O.W. in Vietnam — will be much more attuned to global trends.

My colleague Michael Slackman, The Times’s bureau chief in Cairo, told me about a recent encounter he had with a worker at Cairo’s famed Blue Mosque: “Gamal Abdul Halem was sitting on a green carpet. When he saw we were Americans, he said: ‘Hillary-Obama tied?’ in thick, broken English. He told me that he lived in the Nile Delta, traveling two hours one way everyday to get to work, and still he found time to keep up with the race. He didn’t have anything to say bad about Hillary but felt that Obama would be much better because he is dark-skinned, like him, and because he has Muslim heritage. ‘For me and my family and friends, we want Obama,’ he said. ‘We all like what he is saying.’ ”

Yes, all of this Obama-mania is excessive and will inevitably be punctured should he win the presidency and start making tough calls or big mistakes. For now, though, what it reveals is how much many foreigners, after all the acrimony of the Bush years, still hunger for the “idea of America” — this open, optimistic, and, indeed, revolutionary, place so radically different from their own societies.

In his history of 19th-century America, “What Hath God Wrought,” Daniel Walker Howe quotes Ralph Waldo Emerson as telling a meeting of the Mercantile Library Association in 1844 that “America is the country of the future. It is a country of beginnings, of projects, of vast designs and expectations.”

That’s the America that got swallowed by the war on terrorism. And it’s the America that many people want back. I have no idea whether Obama will win in November. Whether he does or doesn’t, though, the mere fact of his nomination has done something very important. We’ve surprised ourselves and surprised the world and, in so doing, reminded everyone that we are still a country of new beginnings.
Click to expand...

General Zod · Jun 11, 2008

Not a fan of Friedman. Haven't read much of his writings lately. Since I would expect he's supporting McCain, the idea that he wouldn't want to get Obama in trouble seems a bit disingenuous.

Zod

Mormagil · Jun 11, 2008

Thomas Friedman is dumber than a bag of hammers.

Reign in Acai · Jun 12, 2008

Hey Nick, I had a dream of you several hours ago. You were shilling some metalcore/sludge band named Lords of Grindon. Absolutely horrific in every sense of the word. I said several rude remarks towards their tunes, and you stormed off in a hissy. Analytically dissecting this r.e.m experience, I'm led to believe that this correlates with our differing political viewpoints. I felt quite down afterwards, even going to such lengths as canceling my plans for HCIII.

Let's keep this conversation civil. A great man once said, "even though we are often divided as Red States & Blue States, at the end of the day we're all Americans."

Kirgmeister, that pledge of allegiance smear angle is malarkey mate.

Necro Joe · Jun 12, 2008

This was posted in the Debate & Discussion forum of the SomethingAwful boards, and I think it is a worthwhile read for those still unconvinced by the idea of Universal/Socialised healthcare. The title is 'Why Universal Health Care Is Unambiguously Necessary For America' so it is obviously arguing for UC while trying to tear down the arguments against it, though the author supports many of his points well and I don't think people should dismiss his arguments without first taking a look at the facts he presents.

There have been a lot of debates and discussions recently, both on this forum and in other venues, about the state of healthcare. Looking at the rising costs of health insurance, and at the growing numbers of the uninsured, many are calling for government intervention, and the institution of a system where care is guaranteed to all - usually described as "universal" healthcare. It's a fascinating topic - the issues involved include humanitarian, financial and ideological ones. Unfortunately, debate on the subject is characterised by a startling phenomenon: one side is right, and the other is completely wrong.

Given the importance of medicine, I feel that it would be useful to clarify this issue. I will explain clearly, and with evidence, why it is that universal healthcare of any sort would be better than the current system in every significant way. If you find yourself disagreeing with this assertion, I ask that you read on before replying, as all conceivable objections will be addressed and resolved.

Why The Current Situation Is Bad

At the moment, healthcare in America is provided mostly by private entities, who charge high fees. These fees can be attributed largely due to the difficulty and expense of the medical profession, and although they are significantly higher than those of similar nations this difference is only a small portion of healthcare costs. There then exists the health insurance industry, a loose network of corporations that charge individuals or organisations premiums and will pay for their health costs if any are incurred.

Unfortunately, this system has enormous problems. As of 2006, 44.8 million people in America do not have health insurance. Many are unable to afford it, many are denied coverage by insurers who believe that as customers they will not be economical, and others choose not to purchase it. Without health insurance, the up-front costs of health care are impossible for most people to afford. In fact, 50.35% of all bankruptcies were caused, at least in part, by medical fees. In 2001, this was 2,038,549 bankruptcies.

Furthermore, health insurance does not fully cover medical expenses. Different insurers and different plans have many exemptions, co-pays, threshholds and other expense-minimising devices. As a result, 62% of those two million bankruptcies occurred despite the debtors having health insurance coverage for the duration of their illness.

As well as failing to provide care, and driving individuals into bankruptcy, the existing system is also exorbitantly expensive. Health care spending is now 15% of U.S. GDP - the highest in the world. The costs to businesses, who commonly pay premiums for their employees in lieu of salary, rose by 13.9% in 2003. The annual cost increase has been above inflation since at least 1981. Paying more doesn't result in more value, either - obesity, diabetes, and similar disorders are more common in the United States than anywhere else in the developed world, the U.S. is ranked 72nd in overall health, and life expectancy is below that of 41 other countries.

What Is Universal Health Care?

Universal Health Care, or UHC, refers to a wide range of different systems, the common characteristic of which is that a nation's government guarantees all its citizens access to healthcare. Every developed nation (OECD member) in the world, apart from the United States, has a UHC system. There are three main types:

In a fully public system, there is no or little private healthcare, and the health insurance industry is not a significant one. Medical service providers are government employees, and the education of doctors is also subsidised. The most well known example of a fully public system is the original English NHS, although a private sector is now developing in the U.K. as well.

In an optional public, the government provides the same services, but a private health services industry also exists (generally regulated), and . Sometimes health insurers exist, used by people who prefer private services. This is the most common, and examples include Australia and Sweden.

In a subsidised private system, the government pays for health care, but it is provided by private entities. Either the government acts as a health insurer for the populace, or it pays the fees for private health insurers to do so. This is done in Canada.

For the purposes of discussion, I will be assuming the characteristics of an optional public system, like those used in most of Europe. However, the benefits of UHC apply to all of the above types of organisation.

How UHC Will Improve Things

The single largest problem with healthcare in America is that many people don't have it. It's obvious how UHC solves this: by providing it to all citizens directly (or paying for it to be done). By definition, this is no longer a problem under UHC. All developed nations other than the United States make this guarantee to their citizens, and have so far been able to uphold it. The two reasons which make a person uninsurable - insurer decisions and lack of money - will no longer exist.

The second major problem with the current system is its high cost. This can be divided into two parts: individual cost, and government cost - which to the individual shows up as taxation. UHC is inherently cheaper - far cheaper - due to economies of scale, the bargaining position of monopolies with regard to drugs and salaries, reduced administrative costs, and the lack of a profit motive. When it comes to individual health care costs:

According to the World Health Organisation, average American individual spending on healthcare is $3371 per year. Since this includes the uninsured and those covered by their employers, actual costs are higher. For comparison:

Australia: $1017
Canada: $916
Sweden: $532
United Kingdom: $397

The first of those is the second-highest in the world - meaning that Americans pay, not including taxes, more than three times as much as citizens of any other nation. This would be somewhat justifiable if they received better healthcare, but again - 28% have no care at all, life expectancy is below all other developed nations, and general health rating is below all other developed nations.

It is commonly assumed that this difference in cost is because under UHC systems, higher taxes are required to fund the system. Not so. As mentioned, UHC is a great deal cheaper than private healthcare, and as a result America's health-related taxation is also the highest in the world. According to the OECD, in 2006, American government spending on healthcare was $2887 per person. For comparison:

Australia: $2106
Canada: $2338
Sweden: $2468
United Kingdom: $2372

American healthcare taxes are in fact the highest in the OECD, with France second at $2714. In conclusion, every single UHC system in the world costs less money for individuals, requires lower taxes, and provides better care to more people than the American health care system. By implementing UHC in the U.S., things can only get better.

Frequently Raised Objections

There are many incorrect arguments against the implementation of UHC in the United States. In order to better facilitate discussion, I will explain the errors found in the most common.

"America isn't Europe!", or It Won't Work Here
The argument from American exceptionalism states that what works in Europe will not work in the U.S. It's said that this is because European nations have more people in less space, resulting in less logistical difficulties, and because European government is more competent.

Firstly, not all developed nations are European. The most obvious example that counteracts the logistical argument is Australia, where there are 20 million people in only slightly less space than America's 300 million. This does indeed affect prices, as can be seen by comparing Australia to Sweden or the U.K. - but it doesn't bring them anywhere near the levels currently experienced in America.

The argument that American government is uniquely incompetent, and cannot do things that every other nation in the world can do, is simply nonsense. Not only has America, and American government, achieved many things that other countries have not, America has so many resources and the improvement in care and cost from moving to UHC is so large that even with incredible inefficiencies it would still be a good idea.

"It is immoral to force me to pay for others' healthcare."
You are already paying for others' healthcare. Furthermore, you are paying far more than you would be under UHC. The U.S. government incurs massive costs from paying hospital fees when ER visitors have no money, and from the limited coverage that it provides, which cannot take advantage of economies of scale and which has to subsidise corporate profit.

As demonstrated above, U.S. taxes devoted to healthcare are the highest in the world. Even if you choose not to have health insurance, under the current system, you are still paying more for others' healthcare than you would be paying for theirs plus your own under UHC.

"This is socialism."
It is not socialist to recognise that there is a service the free market is inefficient at providing, and to decide it should better be provided by the government. Even the most staunch libertarian admits that there are some services in this category, such as national defence.

Secondly, it is irrelevant whether this is a "socialist" policy; it's effective. It costs less and provides better care to more people, and as a result is used literally everywhere else in the entire world. Those who want to ensure that society remains ideologically committed to market capitalism need to look for other issues, as if they cling to this one they will only end up providing evidence against their position.

"I don't want more government bureaucracy."
UHC will involve much less bureaucracy than is commonly assumed, as it can replace the existing partial systems like Medicare and also the plethora of state-specific programs. Regardless, the lives and money saved are more important than any potential expansion of the state.

"Why don't we try making the system even more private instead? That might help."
It might. However, there's no evidence to suggest it, and many reasons to presume it wouldn't. By its nature, the less publicly-supported a system, the more people will be unable to purchase health services.

The only potential gain would be reduced costs due to some sort of market mechanism, and in practice this has never occurred; every private healthcare system that has ever existed in world history has proved inefficient and been replaced by public systems, and given the demonstrable gains that have resulted the U.S. must follow.

"Doctors will be paid less."
They probably will. In nations with UHC, doctors often earn less - for example, U.S. doctors earn 30% more than Canadian doctors - but this isn't an inherent problem. It is still one of the highest-paying professions in the world, and there are many other ways of attracting skilled people to medicine - such as subsidising their education.

It is sometimes claimed that doctors paid less in a country with UHC will instead go elsewhere where they can be paid more, but once the U.S. has UHC there will not be an elsewhere to go.

"Medical research is funded by the payments of the rich in the current system, and will be reduced."
It is not true that most medical research is done in the United States. In 2000, U.S. research spending was $46 billion, but European spending was also $43 billion. And although U.S. research spending doubled in the last decade, the funding's efficacy has actually decreased.

Secondarily, if the option for private healthcare still exists - and there is no reason why it should not - there will still be people choosing to pay more for a higher quality of care, faster service, et cetera. Their profits will still be reinvested in the development of new drugs, equipment and understanding of the human body, as they still are in nations with UHC today. Even in the United States, private spending accounts for only 57% of research spending.

"With the option of private healthcare, the rich will 'opt out' and costs will go up."
This isn't necessarily true at all; although private healthcare is usually allowed in UHC nations (for good reasons), it doesn't have to decrease the taxes paid by all to support the public system!

"Other countries fix drug prices, so the US has to pay more for drugs."
This is another common misconception. U.S. healthcare does not include higher ************** spending than other countries; it's around the average or even slightly lower. From the OECD:

Canada: 17.7%
Germany: 15.2%
Iceland: 13.3%
Australia: 13.3%
US: 12.4%
Sweden: 12%
Ireland: 11.6%

In Conclusion

Thank you for reading. To those who were not previously supporters of UHC, I apologise if anything seemed condescending, but there's no shame in being wrong due to not having all the facts or having been misled. If anyone has questions feel free to ask, and hopefully we can now discuss what sort of UHC system ought to be implemented or how the political will for it can be gathered, rather than being bogged down by misconceptions about its desirability.
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spaffe · Jun 12, 2008

Lolz, is there anything more to this whole election thing, than a hurling at one another of insults based on the small moral errors that most members of the human race tend to fall victim to?

Just elect a proper absolutist monarch already and get this charade over with

Reign in Acai · Jun 12, 2008

Bah, there's "affordable" HMO's out there. Kaiser Permanante is only $150 a month for adults 49 yrs of age and below (if I recall). No E.R is turning away these illegals when they inevitably get shot by rival gangs. I'm so God damn sick of seeing a fuck ton of my check getting swallowed up to pay for every fucking low life who refuses to earn their keep. Not to mention that Universal Health Care is already a tried & tested proven failure. Do you know how many tens of thousands Canadians flood our states to find quality privatized health care?!?! Some Canuck cities actually hold lotteries for PCPs.

Necro Joe · Jun 12, 2008

Reign in Acai said: ↑

Universal Health Care is already a tried & tested proven failure...
Click to expand...

As the piece I posted hopefully demonstrates, this is wrong on many, many levels.

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Who you leaning towards in 2008 Presidential Election?

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Not voting.

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Welcome to Our Community

Who you leaning towards in 2008 Presidential Election?

Rock the Vote (With your cack out)

Billary Cliton

Mormon Romney

Rudy "I love faggoths" Giuliani

John "I invited Rudy to live with me" Edwards

That midget liberal who looks like an old Guardian of Darkness

John I'm more concerned with steroids in baseball than real issues McCain

Osama Obama

Nemtheanga

Not voting.

Reign "Banish all the negars" Acai (Write In)

J. Old Fart

lurch70 Active Member

lurch70 Active Member

lurch70 Active Member

Hell Mike fuck melodic black metal

skeptik Member

dorian gray Returning videotapes

lurch70 Active Member

WhiteBeastofWotan Apostitutes!

Krigloch the Furious Pants full of poo

Climb Thar Hill not family oriented

WhiteBeastofWotan Apostitutes!

lurch70 Active Member

General Zod Ruler of Australia

Mormagil bring back the corvee

Reign in Acai Of Elephant and Man

Necro Joe Answer the chicken

spaffe Geisterglut

Reign in Acai Of Elephant and Man

Necro Joe Answer the chicken

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