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Womanizing, Mysogyny and Libertinism.

Discussion in 'The Philosopher' started by Denrich, Apr 13, 2017.

  1. Bloopy

    Bloopy Active Member

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    It's fairly easy to exclude actual neo-Nazis from smaller live shows if enough people don't want them there. Here there was one in full uniform saluting at a Marduk gig in 2017 who only got a minor smack on the head, but things have changed a lot since and I don't think people would put up with it quite the same. Depends on the city though.

    It's much more difficult to exclude rapists from the scene. I'm aware of one member of an NZ band in particular with very strong allegations against him. But when there's no charges laid and no conviction, it's basically defamation to go around calling him a rapist. He has far more friends in the scene who'd stick by him compared to a loser neo-Nazi, and the accuser risks being the one who gets smeared and cast out.
     
  2. Sedition and Pockets

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    Slander and defamation are usually pretty tall legal hurdles to clear. Just believing victims and ostracizing predators wouldn't meet those standards. I've watched the local goth scene deal consistently and effectively with the creeps and creepers; I know it can be done.
     
  3. TechnicalBarbarity

    TechnicalBarbarity -TheNightsBane-

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    ... says the new creep.

    "believing the victims" :lol: victims would first need to prove whatever it is they're claiming in order for people to actually believe them. Part of whats wrong with society today is every creep wants to play the victim role ... and then they go on to grab their microphones and start voicing their ridiculous and disconnected from reality outlook on everything.

    Oh and fuck the goth scene btw, in no way do they resemble metalheads. It's also probably where you belong. If you actually went to metal shows and stepped foot outside of your dungeon you would realize most of your complainants are non-existent.
     
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  4. Sophii

    Sophii Artemis (Umbra Aeon)

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    As far as I know, the only thing metalheads care for at shows are beer and riffs. Thats pretty much all that matters in that moment.
     
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  5. CiG

    CiG So Long Suckers!

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    Ridiculous worldview.

    And there you go again, contradicting yourself. On one hand you dismiss callout culture, on the other hand you advocate for it and boast of its usefulness. Make your mind up.
     
  6. Sedition and Pockets

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    No, I suggested there are defects in activist methods, as there are in all methods. You noted one of those defects—the ease with which some of those activist techniques can be turned inward and develop into the "circular firing squad" of myth and legend. I also qualified that by pointing out the actual effects of callout culture on those targeted by it are pretty trivial, i.e. social ostracism. The fact that a tool can be wielded both constructively and destructively doesn't negate the value of the tool.
     
  7. Blurry_Dreams

    Blurry_Dreams Active Member

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    are you tila tequila?
     
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  8. Sedition and Pockets

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    Depends. Do I get her bank account if I agree?
     
  9. CiG

    CiG So Long Suckers!

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    Suicide can result from social ostracism. The negative impacts of such methods are amplified when the accusations are false. Further amplification can happen if said community makes up a lot/all of that person's social structure.

    If you think social ostracism is trivial, stop pushing for it you dimwit. Or do you simply thrive off being outraged 24/7?
     
  10. Sedition and Pockets

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    If you're a child being bullied across multiple platforms, sure. If the extent of your social ostracism is you're banned from a couple of venues and people don't invite you to shows and that triggers a self-harming response, there was something so bad wrong with you to begin with that blaming the result on ostracism is to miss the point entirely. It's not something I'm losing any sleep over; sexual predators offing themselves is a problem solving itself.

    When you refuse to ostracize a predator, you are in fact ostracizing their victims. There are vastly more real predators with real victims in their wake than there are men falsely accused of sexual misbehavior,. Choosing a "neutral" stance is, in effect, to choose to believe predators rather than victims, with all the consequences that entails.
     
  11. CiG

    CiG So Long Suckers!

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    I'm not suggesting ostracization itself will lead to suicide, but rather the nature of the accusation(s) that result in ostracization in the first place. Obviously.

    Blatantly false.
     
  12. Sedition and Pockets

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    Given the statistical rarity of deliberately falsified allegations and the statistically commonplace nature of actual sexual assault, that's a risk that I consider morally defensible

    But of course! There is, after all, no functionally "neutral" position on whether one believes victims or not; the middle ground is an illusion and is functionally indistinguishable from preemptive disbelief.
     
  13. TechnicalBarbarity

    TechnicalBarbarity -TheNightsBane-

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    :lol: this clown cannot be for real.

    Btw there was a former user here who pretender to be a woman and even gave a story about how "she" was raped only for us to find out that he was actually a dude and had sexually assaulted one of his ex girlfriends. Such a victim he was.
     
  14. CiG

    CiG So Long Suckers!

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    Statistics are meaningless in this discussion, because a) not all "victims" file police reports and b) not all accusations are a matter of law. If you start calling someone in the scene a pedophile that likely won't become a legal issue unless they themselves take you to court, let alone if you decide to call someone a "Nazi" or some such other label.

    You seem like an expert on illusion. With us or against us, how very George Bush of you. :lol:

    I reject it completely.

    The fundamental flaw in police-minded individuals like yourself who wish to weaponize callout culture and ostracism in their communities is that once it is proved to be an effective weapon, it will become misused. Fascism, communism, faith communities, activist communities, it always happens. It has already happened in the still quite young #MeToo movement. You might consider the negative effects to be worth it, but that's likely because you view yourself as above collateral.
     
  15. Sedition and Pockets

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    We have data that cover the roughly 40% of estimated annual sexual assaults that are reported to the police. That's more than enough to be able to reach some general conclusions (ie that credible reports vastly outnumber false accusations). Within the data sets we do have access to, false accusation rates ranged from 2-7%. You could increase the false accusation rate by a factor of four (4!) among assaults not reported to police and still have a ratio of credible reports to false accusations ranging from 2.5:1-11.5:1. You pretty much have to be selectively credulous nearly to the point of pure conspiracy theory to think the number of false allegations even remotely approaches the number of sexual assaults.

    Here is the US, the bar is high enough for slander and libel that it is hard to imagine many conceivable scenarios where a case like this would ever actually go to trial. To prove slander or libel, you have to prove someone said, wrote or broadcasted something defamatory and untrue, that they knew it to be defamatory and untrue, and that they had malicious intent in saying, writing or broadcasting the slanderous or libelous material. To get it to trial, you'll probably have to demonstrate that you suffered material harm from the slander or libel. These are very narrowly constructed statutes, and putting out an informal APB on a potential predator in a social or music scene is very unlikely to fall within that narrow construction.

    Shit boy-o, that's literally a universal "fundamental flaw" of any tool. There will always be ways to misuse or abuse a tool, but that isn't a particularly strong argument in favor of not using them. I suspect you recognize this in other contexts, in fact, I'd bet dollars to donuts that there are other subjects where you would object categorically to the basic premise you have forwarded here (the possibility that a tool might be misused means we should reject the tool).
     
  16. CiG

    CiG So Long Suckers!

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    By this logic, alienating black people in the metal scene accused of anything would be statistically justified due to black crime rates relative to the rest of the US population. The chances that they did whatever they're hypothetically accused of outweighs all other considerations no? By dint of ethnicity, the "victim" is highly likely telling the truth and anything other than condemnation and belief is alienation of said "victim." Same with men in general, in fact we should pre-emptively ostracize them, statistically it's only a matter of time until they do something isn't it?

    Anyway like I stated previously, it's irrelevant to the point.

    I've noticed this multiple times in this discussion, it's as if you ignore what I said and post a rebuttal to what you either a) think I said, b) feel I said or c) you debate so often you think you can recycle prior rebuttals here even when they don't address what I said.

    I specifically said calling someone a pedophile or a "Nazi" in the scene won't become a legal issue unless they themselves take you to court (slim chance anything will come of it besides wasted time and resources, which itself can be enough punishment) and is therefore open to even higher levels of abuse. If someone calls you a pedophile you have little recourse, if someone calls you a "Nazi" you have none. At least with an accusation of sexual misconduct there is some burden of proof, but being labelled is itself open to much more abuse of power.

    Instead of copying and pasting Wiki back to me, you should actually address what I say.

    Rather reductionist. Of course perfection doesn't exist, especially not in anything man-made. Mob justice is a tool, I agree, I'm sure it has helped humans in different ways over our existence but it's not necessarily a tool I care to use or preserve. I'm not a relativist and not all tools are equal.
     
  17. TechnicalBarbarity

    TechnicalBarbarity -TheNightsBane-

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    the "credible reports" and numbers this dude is talking about is from people who actually get arrested because people like him cry about being victims. Those are definitely not the numbers once the cases are laid out and at least half of them are dismissed. If i was a woman and called the cops right now and said "my boyfriend beat me", they are going to take him to jail and book him with almost no questions asked until he gets his day in court. This dude is using numbers that favor the same type of dangerous/venomous/viral culture/mindset that we are basically calling him out for. He is just continuously destroying his own arguments.
     
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  18. Blurry_Dreams

    Blurry_Dreams Active Member

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    in Texas it's really bad
    a girl can just say "you won't find any semen because..." and then get any random dude a prison sentence for raping her
     
  19. Sedition and Pockets

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    The lives of Black folks are deeply, materially circumscribed in ways our lives are not. They are much more likely to face poverty and live in areas of concentrated poverty. They are exposed to heightened social scrutiny in public spaces and to vastly disproportionate levels of policing within their own communities. The integrity of Black communities, the integrity of their invisible social networks and the visible economic and business networks that once propped them up, has been systematically shattered using large infrastructure projects, "urban renewal," and gentrification as the tools of destruction. When we talk about supposedly heightened levels of "Black crime," what we're really talking about is the concrete, material manifestation of the historical legacy of systemic white supremacy, and its continuing institutional practice in contemporary society.

    So, no, I don't think there is any legitimate comparison between taking a stance of presumptive belief in the stories of victims of predatory sexual behavior and of holding predatory men socially accountable for their behavior—when we know statistically and empirically that there are very few false allegations being leveled—and a presumption that would hold individual Black folks inherently and always responsible for the work of white supremacy.

    Stated, yes, but nowhere proven or even defended. I'm willing to entertain argument—even when it is slipshod and shot through with sophistry—but I will not engage with unsupported assertions pronounced ex cathedra.

    Part of why we seem to be talking past each other, I suspect, is that we're dealing with a fundamental conceptual divide. You are arguing in favor of an abstract principle or ideal ("The Presumption of Innocence"). Because you are defending a principle in the abstract, you view the material circumstances of its application as irrelevant. It's the principle of the thing; it should be held inviolate regardless of the social context.

    On the other hand, abstract principles strike me as being essentially faith statements, even when their content is secular in nature. Abstract ideals aren't really open to debate in the normal sense; they cannot be disputed by reference to facts, and are subject to change only through the experience of revelation. I'm not an idealist, I'm a materialist. I don't really give a shit about ideals or principles abstracted from the social, political, economic (etc) contexts in which they are applied, and I think those material contexts are entirely relevant to addressing pragmatic social concerns.

    To bring things back from the conceptual to the concrete, I believe that the way we privilege the narratives of accuser and accused needs to reflect the context in which those narratives are being presented. In the legal process and criminal trials—incidentally the context which the "presumption of innocence" was developed—deference to the accused party is warranted, and, indeed, required, given the vast imbalance of power that exists in a contest between a single individual and the resources, authority and capacity for violence of the state, as well as the severe and potentially life-altering potential consequences faced by criminal defendants.

    In the context of the internal policing of a social scene, I don't see that the presumption of innocence offers any practical advantages. The consequences for victims (and potential future victims) are quite severe, while the potential consequences faced by the accused (within the scene) are limited in scope. We have good empirical evidence that people don't lie very often about being victims of sexually predatory behavior. Under those circumstances, I think the benefits to the community as a whole that accrue from privileging the stories of accusers over the accused are substantial, and the potential downsides fairly trivial. The alternative seems to largely benefit individuals with boundary issues and a poor understanding of or disregard for consent, without any corresponding benefits for the community at large.

    tl;dr version a social scene is not a court of law, and the same rules need not apply.

    And I agreed with you, elaborating only to point out that the courts are unlikely to even entertain a libel suit under those circumstances.

    No, you don't have much recourse, but that speaks more to the particulars of that particular charge and the degree to which folks think reflexively when the safety of children is called into question.

    Sure you do. It's a scene. If you're not a nazi, there are people that will know you and know that. What gets people called "nazis"and makes it stick is holding views consonant with nazi thought. Again, it's a scene; people are gonna know.

    I know this is probably abstractions and hypotheticals for you, but I have lived experience with this. For obvious reasons, I do not front with this background, but I dumped nearly a decade of my life into far right movement politics. I've rubbed shoulders socially with some of the stars of your favorite, "Nazi gets punched," viral hits. I got called a "nazi." A lot. I was a nazi. It comes with the territory.

    That allegiance came at significant social cost to me. I was cut out of the local scene, banned from all the music venues and half a dozen regular old bars. I won't lie, it felt shitty and it hurt. I'd invested an enormous amount of time, energy and emotional labor into being in and part of a community of metal fans. Being a hesher was a big component of what passed for my identity. Having that connection taken away left me unmoored and isolated.

    The thing is, I needed to be unmoored and isolated. The views I held were a social cancer, among the very worst and most destructive ideas ever conjured by the minds of men. People coddling me and looking past my noxious opinions were not doing me any favors. It helped keep me stuck pissing away my life chasing ideas that, had I possessed the fucking wit to achieve even an elementary understanding of myself, I would have known were literally existentially threatening to me. Being called out and held accountable for the views I held and the way I moved about in the world was a game changer for me. It forced me to take stock of my life, to be self-honestly reflective on how I was living and had lived. It gave me an opportunity for personal growth that I took off and ran with. It was the kick in the ass I needed, and my life has been better in every way for it.

    All informal social spaces are governed by mob rule. The lack of formal mechanisms and rules is inherent to the context; enforcement of consensus is spontaneous and collective by default. You're demanding, on principle, that the leopard must stop having spots.
     
  20. TechnicalBarbarity

    TechnicalBarbarity -TheNightsBane-

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    yeah i see thing like this happen all the time here. I know far more people who have been falsely accused of all kinds of things by scorn women, and on the other hand i dont know many women who have actually been raped/sexually abused and even physically abused. Most of the the time its been some scorned broad who goes crazy on her husband/bf and even psychically assaults him, only to end up calling the cops and crying wolf. I've seen this happen dozens and dozens of times throughout my life. This sedition and pockets dude is just living in his own warped little mind and people like him are just poisoning society.


    oh is that why there are more poor white people in this country than poor black people? In reality black people today are the most privileged(and racist) group in this country. but what would a brainwashed sjw like you know about reality?

    and btw those statistics you keep bringing up are of people who were booked, not what the actual outcome of said cases were. Very rarely does a cop come to the scene and decide if the accusations were false or not, they arrest the dude and let the courts decide. And im pretty sure you know that. Such disgusting person you are.
     
    #80 TechnicalBarbarity, Jan 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020

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