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yassin is dead

Discussion in 'Chat' started by rotten_doll, Mar 22, 2004.

  1. xenophobe

    xenophobe Active Member

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    Do you know much history about the area? I know just a little, but after world war two, when the Isrealis and Palestinians were both given their area of land, the very next day, the Palestinians attacked.

    Sure there is blood on both sides hands, but which side keeps suicide bombing innocent people?

    The palestinians that are being killed are mostly the ones who are being unrestful.

    Unfortunately, I don't see an end, and as horrible a person as Yassin was, I doubt his successor could be as evil as him.
     
  2. Taliesin

    Taliesin Immaturity Aside

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    If I remember right, it was because the land that was given to the Israelis had before been Palestine property.

    And what side keeps destroying Palestine settlements? What side is building a wall that is partly quite far off the borderline once constituted between Israeli and Palestine Terroritory? And what side keeps taking out Hamas leaders in the middle of a city if needed, not giving a flying fuck about bystanders being killed?

    Maybe if you weigh one side against the other, the Israelis walk off with less blood on their hands, I dont know, and even if, breaking international law cant be the way here. It cant, because Israel as a country has to respect the law in order to be different from the Terrorists. As a country, you cant just do what would militarywise be the best solution, you have to stand for a few values and standards.
     
  3. kkfootee

    kkfootee Hvorfor ikke

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    Wandrail, I strongly disagree with you in many of your opinions. I admit that I have spared myself the duty of reading thoroughly all your speeches, because in the end I can recognise any typical political panflet whose content can be guessed point after point. :Smug: Guess one can look at things from many points of view, so I won't expose here mine. After all, they can also be guessed, just like yours.

    The problem with many of you Americans is that you live in a bubble, convinced of your own biased tendency to see yourselves as saviours of the galaxy. All your interventions in X or Y corner of the earth (which many of you, by the way, would be absolutely unable to locate in a world map), is caused by true and transparent good will. Funnily enough, the rest of the planet does not usually share this view, to your unawareness :confused: .

    Regarding the Israeli issue, I admit I consider Sharon as frightening a terrorist as can be. I would rather support the devil than support Sharon. The same goes for Bush. I don't even know who would be Big Brother and who would be Little Brother in this happy couple.

    I don't expect nice comments after this I said, but I'm being honest, and I don't think I'm the only one who thinks like that :err:. Strange as it may seem.

     
  4. Falconspirit

    Falconspirit I Died A Little

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    ^I Second That
     
  5. Taliesin

    Taliesin Immaturity Aside

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    So do I, but then again, I sometimes seem to be just as sure about what I know and think is right than the Americans do.. so no matter where you are and in what environment you live in, you always have to be critical towards what you read and always ask "Who is telling me this and what might be his interests", and noone is immune to being wronged, even if we Europeans sometimes like to believe that.

    Anyway, I just read some stuff about the beginning of the conflict between Palestine and Israel. Apparently, the british mandat over the region ended on March 14 in 1948. This was based on the grounds of a plan elaborated by the UN in 1947 that should seperate the region in two parts, one part jewish and one part muslim.
    On March 15, Syria, Lebanon, Jordania, Egypt and Iraq attaqued. The war didnt end with a Peace Treaty, but with Israel's military controlling large parts of the region, slaughtering the muslim population, the worst massaquer counting about 250 dead Arabs. Afterwards, the Israelis didnt give a fuck about the plan made beforehand and since then "own" the land that is now called Israel.

    I didnt know that before.. so.. Eric, do you still think Israel has a right to protect their land and their people when really this is how they came to owning their land? Im not saying they should give the land back, after 50 years, that'd be bullshit.. but there has to be a solution.. and the wall is not, especially not when it's built on Palestine grounds and not on the borderline between both territories..
     
  6. Wandrail

    Wandrail I'm your Huckleberry

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    Well, if you've seen today the Palestinians sent a wee 14 year old boy to go blow himself up with promises of sex with 72 virgins in his heaven and about $22 US when he does it, and the Israelis stopped him. They didn't shoot him, they disarmed him and took him into custody. You tell me who acts with honor, who respects human life. The existence of Hamas, Hezbollah and the PLO is not to have an equal say for Islamic people in the area, it is to eradicate the jews and take over all of israel and force submission to Islamic law. This is their own stated purpose, and they are proud of it! I don't see how its so easy for some of you people to rationalize these things. You would honestly expect israel to commit such an act of suicide as to make some first step and what - totally lay down their arms? Kneel to palestine, kneck exposed and take whatever may come for some naive thought that Arafat has really just been waiting for a fair shake, that he's really an aok guy?? That is suicide, and no real leader would ever be so irresponsible for his citizens as to even consider it. Israel doesn't have to carpet bomb, and really, as glad as I am to see Yassin vaporized, the smarter thing for Israel to do is roll in with their much more advanced weaponry and hold the enemy areas as we have done in Iraq. Rome did not defeat urban areas with surgical strikes, they did it with boots on the ground and a superior presence. These groups are not fully organized armies, they are movements and small paramilitary units. Israel knows they could do this, they have done it before but never taken it all the way, and the only reason they don't is because of foreign sentiments. It's folly - they should do what they have to do, a short battle is better than being bled dry over a few years. Better for morale, better for the area, better any way you look at it.
     
  7. Wandrail

    Wandrail I'm your Huckleberry

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    I don't see how you come away from acknowledging the attack made by almost every middle eastern nation in an attempt to eradicate Israel as soon as Britain was out of the picture to asking why Israel killed the enemy?! Why do you think there would be a peace treaty out of an attempt to completely eliminate a people and their small nation, do you think a peace treaty was offered to Israel? War was declared on Israel, not the other way around, so when they achieved victory which could only be done by killing those who are trying to kill you, by the way, they held those areas they had moved on. This is sound strategically to create a larger buffer zone between these nations and Israel so as not to invite the attack as easily again, and all of those nations since that day have continued to express their desire to wipe Israel of the map. In this way this is a strategy of peace, but I would go so far as to personally say that in so cowardly and viciously attacking this tiny nation, these countries rightly suffered any loss of land or life, as it was their choice to strike out of hatred and bloodlust.
     
  8. SacredSerenity

    SacredSerenity Lord of the Depths

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    Every time I read something online or in the papers about the peace process, I can't help but think that there really is no chance for a peaceful solution with current mindsets the way they are over there (always referred to as the Middle East, though really the name is completely relative to some other position). One thing a lot of people fail to realize is the mentality of the Palistinian nationalists and all other Islamic fundamentalists, one which makes peace impossible. These people do not, and have never, acknowledged Israel's right to exist. Their entire side of the war is motivated by pure hatred for the Jews, plain and simple. They do not want peace. They do not want a separate Palistinian state. They want land the Jews occupy, without the Jews: sharing the land is utterly impossible. The peace talks, the shaking of hands between Israeli and Palistinian leaders, is mere posturing that will produce no result until Israel's right to exist is acknowledged. If that means wiping out everyone who is determined to destroy Israel, then that's what has to happen. As far as chastising Israel for this "unprovoked attack" that will only increase the tension, Israel can't always wait by until an attack happens. Preemptive action is sometimes the best choice. The fear of retaliation by lawless, hateful, unscrupulous fiends must not deter a nation from striking hard at the infrastructure of its enemy's operation (i.e. it's leadership, its camps). Yes, the casualties that will inevitably result are unfortunate, but something must be done to damage and weaken the ever-present terrorist threat. Peace exists when justice is present, not when terror is absent for the time being.
    These terrorist groups do not exist for some righteous purpose, however much they would like to delude themselves into thinking that their tactics and cause are just. They exist merely to destabilize, to antagonize and threaten, to spread panic, fear, misery and destruction. They cannot be won over or appeased, and so they must be wholly eradicated.
    I do not attempt here to show callous disregard for the deaths on the Palistinian side, as some are regrettable (civilians), or to lionize Israel. With all the killing, neither side is totally beyond reproach. Both sides have much blood on their hands, but we must be clear that if a side has a legitimate cause, it is Israel. The radical Islamicist groups diabolically pervert the doctrines they claim to uphold. They must be afforded no mercy, no fairness, no opportunity to wreak further turbulence in a region that has seen too much death and destruction already.
     
  9. Dead Winter

    Dead Winter STAHP

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    kkfootee has several valid points, I must be honest. Also, I commend him for not generalizing ALL Americans being as he described. However...

    To say that Americans live in a bubble is somewhat silly. I've traveled the world, and I must say, if ANYONE lives in a bubble, it's Europe. So safe and sound within their worlds that nothing else that goes on in the world affects them. They see it on the news and that's about it. Of course, there is a reason for this...none of them are superpowers...you should be happy you aren't. Where was Europe when the people of Mogadishu were getting slaughtered? Where was Europe in WW2, besides getting conquered one by one by Hitler? Where is Europe every time someone decides to wreak genocide on their own people around the world? Behind us. Bringing up the rear. Before I get some daggers thrown at me, I'm not slamming on anyone because I absofuckinlutely LOVE Europe and never want to leave. My point is that they don't have the power to spearhead major operations, so they are naturally used as support. This is why they live in a bubble; they don't have the worries that our country does, none of the responsibility, none of the troubles. If the shit hits the fan in your country, who are you gonna call? Ghostbusters? The US, even if you HATE OUR GUTS, you're going to call on us because an attack on an ally is an attack on us. I'm going to say this once, and then I don't ever want to have to say it again...WE DON'T WANT THE RESPONSIBILITY ANYMORE. WE'RE TIRED OF BEING THE POLICE OF THE WORLD. OUR VIEW IS TO LET EACH COUNTRY HANDLE ITS OWN PROBLEMS, AND IF IT GETS OUT OF HAND, GIVE US A CALL. We're tired of being stereotyped, tired of being blasted day in, day out for things we have no control over. Our foreign policy sucks, we know this. This isn't news. Sometimes I would like to put BACK INTO POWER the monsters we took out of power. Here, here's Mussolini, Hitler, Hussein, etc. You take them since you don't need us anymore, and don't call us if you wake up and 10,000 troops are knocking on your door to take over your house and rape and pillage your home. The people living in the bubbles are the people who don't have to worry about playing policeman to the world...not the Americans. BE THANKFUL you have those bubbles, and stop chucking spears at us for only doing what other countries are asking us to do because we cannot sit around while our friends get slaughtered. I'd kill to be European.

    Madrid. What a tragedy. Unfuckin'believable. As horrible as it is, it's the first time that Europe has felt terrorism like that in a long, long time. For us, we're used to it. Now other countries are seeing what it's like to be affected by problems in the real and dangerous world that it is. It's time to put a stop to all the bickering and arguing and finger pointing, because in the end, we all want the same thing. The problem with Europe is that it is unrelentingly selfish and very near-sighted. All that is starting to change now that it's been introduced to the real world. Hopefully we can all get on board and put a stop to this senseless violence.
     
  10. Wandrail

    Wandrail I'm your Huckleberry

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    I had a nice long response going to kkfootee, but my mouse has these buttons on the side, and when I accidentally depress one, its serves as page back in IE, and I lost it all. Bah. Anyway, my main point was that Americans do not live in a bubble, we are very much aware of especially Europe's opinion of us and our actions. I do not agree that our foreign policy has sucked, we have had many more successes than failures, and most of what people consider our 'bad foreign policy' i.e. our fight against communism was possibly our most important and correct fight of all. Yes we supported some shaky 3rd world governments that ended up going bad, especially afghanistan, but the reality of such warfare has dawned on few western doorsteps outside of America, and when you have to take sides, you obviously side with the afghanis who had been invaded and who repelled the soviets with minimal US physical involvement. So 15 years later they are using some of those same rusty rocket launchers against us as they run for their lives from US and Afghani troops, so what? Great lot of good its done them, and better that than for Russia to have succeeded in further conquering the middle east and controlling its oil. Our helping them repel the soviets did nothing to aid in the hijacking of planes on 9/11, as we did not give them airliners, teach them how to fly them, or tell them that God wants them to kill the jews and their co-conspirators (i.e. us). It just occurs to me that reality is not something that stretches too far beyond the cradling arms of over indulgent european governments. The world of europe is the world of month long vacations from work that are enforced by the government, of relativism, of such anti-judgemental thinking that right and wrong are bad words and holdouts on society of outdated religious thought. Europe cringes when an American soldier says flatly that the al qaeda terrorists are 'the bad guys', and when Bush uses the word 'evil', because these are embarassingly unsophisticated ways of thinking and speaking to them. The worship of society and intellectualism has rendered whole populaces impotent to confront real life situations of any import. How could europe ever raise a hand to defend itself when it can never be convinced that military action is justified in any situation?

    I hate to say it, but Spain's election was horrifying proof that much of Europe has lost any resolve and courage it once had to the weakening, fattening glut of statist, authoritarian government. A pathetic bully struck a blow to a once mighty nation with a proud history and it fell over, begged for mercy, and offered its damn lunch money. I feel so bad for the people who died in that attack, and their families, but I cannot imagine the mindset that concludes from that attack to tuck tail and run from a band of merciless dogs into the arms of a government that promises everything will be okay if we just do what those people who killed your families want. Just leave them be, we should never have done anything to them in the first place. These vicious bastards would love to claim their lost kingdom of Andalusia back from you, finish what the moors could not, and what guarantee can Europe give that they won't be successful when a few men have toppled the military movements of one of the continent's largest nations? As it stands, 9/11 will serve to be their greatest defeat, but Spain their greatest accomplishment. For the thousands of lives they took in the US, it will cost them all their power, money, most of their lives and gain them nothing from us but destruction to their cause. For minimal cost and with comparatively less bloodshed, they have affected an election in their favor in Europe, and Spain is going to run away from the fight altogether to boot.

    America's citizen's do not want our men and women to have to defend people and nations who bite our ankles and grow to resent us like a rebellious child. It galls us, especally those of us who have friends in the military or who grew up in a military household. All these years that resentment has stagnated over there while we have hung around, and perhaps our mistake was a lack of discourse with europe over just that, but I can not find fault in my own country for defending people who cannot and will not defend themselves. It is in the end not in our best interests to abandon europe, the world today being so close-knit and inter-dependent economically due to our advancements in technology, transportation, communication...as much as on a bad day americans would like to watch the rest of the world fall as we pull back behind our oceanic wall just to get that sense of satisfaction, it is not the prudent or just thing to do. The thing is, america wants to love europe, its where we came from, england, ireland, italy, germany. We grow up with the romantic stories of Lafayette and the alliance of France and America, and we wish we had such relations now, but so long as agood leader sits in that head office, we will do what is right for us and for the free world, even when its a hard, unfashionable decision to make. If we had followed europes poo-pooing, thought like them as President Carter did, there is no doubt that the 1980's would have seen a real war breakout between the USSR and the US, and I hate to say that I can't say we would have won considering how demoralized, underequipped, underfunded and derided our military was until Reagan came into office. The same thinking applies to the war on terrorism, but its execution is nowhere near as obvious. You may engage in diplomacy with a nation, but not with shadowy para-military groups, and why would you consider it when someone has made it clear their only goal is your death? We do not live in a bubble, we are not oblivious to your opinions, it only seems that way because we keep turning the other cheek to our 'allies' who keep smacking us.
     
  11. kkfootee

    kkfootee Hvorfor ikke

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    As always, I disagree with your opinions. As always, I don’t read all the speeches, and I won’t try to expose my views thoroughly because it would be useless. It’s like trying to convince an ant that there is life and thought outside its ants’ nest... Or trying to convince me, another little insect, that there is common sense inside it :err: .



    If I was a Spaniard, I would feel insulted by this narrow minded view of “why they voted” that you have exposed. It’s denying the fact that they possess intelligence and maybe, even, clarity of thought. It’s ignoring the fact that 91% of the population was against, and demonstrated against, the ILLEGAL-petrol seeking war against Irak. It’s ignoring the fact that Zapatero, the man who will become president, said he would bring the troops back home BEFORE the terrorist attack took place in Madrid.:confused: Besides, you are noone to tell what people can vote and whether it is right or wrong. That’s the funny part of democracy :zombie:.



    I won’t deny that we Europeans also live in a bubble of wealth. But I believe we are informed by more sources than you Americans, happily contented by what the government blinds your brains with. I believe that, maybe because we don’t rule the world, we avoid this ideal of “imposing” points of view rather than proposing them. The double moral. The hypocrisy. And oh my! We can maybe tell where Nicaragua is, what language they speak in Algeria, and that people in Poland DO have televisions:OMG: . By personal experience I know that an awful lot of Americans can only locate their own navel :Smug:.

    Have a nice day.
     
  12. Raistlin1980

    Raistlin1980 And justice for some

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    [offtopic]
    About Spain, kkfootee is right: Zapatero promised taking back the troops a long time before 11-3. So there's no reason to change his mind after the bombings. And about the result of the elections, i have to say that people were mad at the government because they were trying to make us think that it was ETA who killed 200 people. Most people in other countries thought that it had been islamic terrorists, but our fucking president and his men assured us repeteadly that it was ETA. I had to read foreign newspapers to realize that, since most of the media here are controlled by the government or right-sided.
    So, the terrorists haven't affected our decission to bring back the troops, and the main reasons why PP was defeated is that they lied to us.
    [/offtopic]
     
  13. lord667

    lord667 =UM=Heartburn

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  14. Wandrail

    Wandrail I'm your Huckleberry

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    Hmmm...actually, I would understand your point of view completely, I probably already do because it is bound to be as 'typical' as mine is in your eyes, and about as worthless to me as mine is to yours. The snobbery of the european mindset is that you think you are above everyone else, that we just don't think on your level, we are blinded by 'government media' when the mainstream american media is very against the current administration and biased towards people who think just like yourself. We have plenty of people who are in power in this country who espouse your same points of view, but we determine them to be the wrong philosophies for us. You and I are both stubborn and assured of our points of view, so turning your nose up in the air is pretty silly. 'Open-mindedness' is just a buzz word for refusing to think and have a point of view at all, you know.




    I think the dead in Madrid should feel insulted by the lack of spine of Spanish people who if nothing else have more of a reason to strike against the islamic radicals than they ever did as US supporters. The fact that you call this a petrol seeking war is just hilarious to me, we haven't touched that oil and we don't plan to, our US gas prices are skyrocketing right now. The country with th ebiggest stake on oil in this war was France, and lets not forget all this filth that's coming out now about the UN's corrupt Oil for Food policy, allt he kickbacks, under the table deals Saddam was making. The high horse europe and the UN pretends to sit on in these false, ridiculous accusations has quite simply fallen out from under them. I know exactly that that's what Zapatero said all the time, he and his socialist party condemned the US from day one, but even without the war they would have condemned us because we're capitalists. :Smug: However, all of the spanish polls had the people of spain re-electing the incumbent pretty safely until the attack - and of course the attack was designed to elect Zapatero. The funny thing about a free republic is that I can say it was wrong-headed to elect Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, Zapatero and whatever else I think. I can tell Spain I think its the wrong decision to run from a fight with people who killed their civilians, reward them by granting them what they want. It is also a disservice to the world who is commited to the fight against terrorism in that emboldens them and encourages similar attacks because they know it works now.



    Nowhere is there moreavailable news sources than in the USA - your standard newsstand carries international papers and the thousands of american papers. Our mainstream media is very liberal and against our war effort, which shows that again, it is not me who is unaware of the world outside my 'bubble'. America only 'rules the world' because there's no one left who can, and would you prefer to speak russian? Chinese, perhaps? Would Germany still like to be staring at that wall? I'm sorry we impose our 'point of view' that all humanity shares in equal amounts the desire to be free and have a chance to experience idnependence and democracy. I'm sure the Iraqi and Afghani people enjoy the condescencion that they are not up for the challenge.
     
  15. Dead Winter

    Dead Winter STAHP

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    Very, very well put. I must say, you are a gentleman and a scholar. I just wanted to piggy-back on something that was mentioned.

    It is true that Europeans are typically more worldly than Americans. But have you ever asked yourself why? Have you ever been to America? You do realize that it's the 3rd largest country in the world, don't you? The time it would take to drive across Europe would only be about half the distance across the US. Europeans travel more BECAUSE THEY CAN. It's just as expensive to fly from L.A. to NY as it is from NY to Venice. There are so many wonderful countries in Europe, and they are all condensed into one big continent. On any weekend, I can go to just about any country I want from Italia. In the US, I wouldn't have time to go to ANOTHER STATE, much less another country. And in the US, states may be a stark contrast from one to the next, but it's still America. It's still the same language. Still the same people. Still the same culture. The only thing different from state to state is the surroundings, and sometimes that's not even different. Europeans lead perfect lives, and they don't even know it. I've never seen a country who is more sheltered than Italy. The people's biggest problem that I hear is money...lack of money. That's it. Hearing them talk, you'd think their world was ending. That's because that's all they've had to worry about because everything was given to them and it's extremely family oriented. Italians don't move out of their house until they're either married or around 30. They don't have to. You take those same people and put them in America, which is the land of the self-sufficient, they'll lose their minds. They won't know what to do. The point of all this is that you can't compare Europe to America...it's two totally different mindsets and two totally different cultures. I can say this because I've lived in both. Do not make any judgement on American PEOPLE until you've lived in America. You can say all you want about the government, that's your opinion. But to lambast and broadstroke Americans as being a bunch of Forrest Gumps is totally ridiculous. If you truly think that, then you either have never been to America, never known an American longer than meeting him/her on the street, or you just watch too much tv and surf the internet too much to jump on the I-hate-America bandwagons. Americans don't push their views on anyone else...in fact, if you try to push your views on someone in the states, you're likely to get a foot in the ass. Americans DESPISE people telling them how they should live their lives, and as such, they mind their own business and let others live how they want to. To say that America forces its views on the world just doesn't make any sense to me. We make our views known, and if you like it, great. If you don't, that's fine too. You are still our friends and still our allies. If anyone is vindictive, it's Europe.
     
  16. Lhorian

    Lhorian addict

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    I agree on your point about the fact that Europe and America can't really be compared, for almost thesame reasons as you said.

    But I have to ask this, just to satisfy my own curiousity:
    How does America not force its views on, for instance, Iraq? This is probably asked a million times now, but since you seem to say they don't do that, I'm very curious at what they are doing there if not 'spreading' their view. Not that I'm saying it's not better now in Iraq for I wouldn't know since I never lived there.
    But what I can make out of your last bit ("You are still our friends and still our allies.") is that if one are allies then everything is fine. but who decides who are allies and who are not? And when? I mean, such a thing could change every year or month.

    So summing up my questions:
    Who decides who are allies?
    How does America not force its views on, for instance, Iraq?
    And, does breaking international law end an alliance?

    ps. I'm dutch so don't be to hard on my simple-minded view of the world and my stupid questions;)
     
  17. Dead Winter

    Dead Winter STAHP

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    Welp, the allies themselves decide if they want to be allied to the US. Normally, there are rules and regulations involved to form an alliance, but not always. For instance, you'd probably never see the US allied to a brutal dictatorship, but then again, look at Saudi Arabia.

    America never forces anything. We make our opinion known, and if you agree, fine. If you don't, that's fine too. If a crime is being committed on a global scale, such as genocide or the killing of innocent people, we will normally issue an ultimatum: cease or get your head stepped on. If they don't cease, then we put our money where our mouth is. Now the only problem I have with this is that the US gov't SAID they did everything they could to avoid war, but did they? In my opinion, no. I think that there were many other avenues left to investigate before committing to war. Do I think they would have changed the outcome? Of course not. But what it would've done was keep America from seemingly alienating our allies. That's the problem...everyone wanted Saddam gone, but we all wanted war to be a last resort. Sometimes it seems that war was a second-to-last resort in this case.

    Breaking of international law doesn't automatically end an alliance. It can LEAD to the end of alliances, but that's what we call a crisis. Countries bicker and argue and break laws every single day...I don't care what country you're from. If your best friend got arrested for shoplifting, would you still be his friend, or would you slap him around a little and knock some sense into him and continue being his friend? It's not always this simple, but you get the picture.

    Why would I consider you simple-minded? If anything, I find Europeans fascinating and extremely intelligent.
     
  18. kkfootee

    kkfootee Hvorfor ikke

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    "
    :lol:
     
  19. Taliesin

    Taliesin Immaturity Aside

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    kkfootee, please stick to your points. I agree with you most of the times, but I find Wandrail's and thrashmetal78's posts quite interesting and would like to keep the discussion going, and your posts are not too constructive tbh.

    Picking up the sentence kkfootee quoted there, Id have to say that it's quite wrong. We all saw how the Bush Administration reacted when especially France and Germany said they were not going to support the strike on Iraq.

    Also, Id appreciate if Wandrail stopped saying that what the Spaniards did showed a lack of spine. Only because some people believe war is not the answer doesnt make them a bunch of wusses. Since the end of the Civil War, have there been any wars on american territory? I think not.. in Europe, two World Wars have been fought in the past 90 years, so please excuse us while we think war is not, and cannot be the answer. That also goes back to what you said in the beginning: Learn from the past.

    What I realized during the course of this debate is how much of a hype it is these days to talk shit about America. I still believe that war is not the answer, and that you cant just break the International Law and bring war upon a country, causing the death of thousands of civilians and having the entire country descend in Anarchy. Whether that is better or worse than doing nothing, I cannot say. The thing is though, that you expect your citizens and every Dictator or President of any other nation to follow the rules. The same goes for us, we'd like you to follow the rules as well.

    There was some more I wanted to say.. I'll see if I remember that when Im at home again, heh
     
  20. kkfootee

    kkfootee Hvorfor ikke

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    Ok, you’re right, N.V. My comments do not add anything interesting. I should al least have tried to expose my barely constructive ideas. So I’ll go and squeeze my two neurons to try to do it now, if your Gooddness allows me to continue in the discussion (TBH).



    I have always been quite against the Roosevelt Corollary and all its modern interpretations.



    After the 11st Sept, I have had the constant feeling that public ignorance was cultivated by the occidental governments (particularly the US government) on purpose. All this self-referential rethoric... They are attacking freedom! They are attacking progress! They are attacking democracy! (Who has ever stopped to analyse this problem IN DEPTH, instead of stopping in the a priori judgements?)



    I do not think of these events as acts of revenge of envious people. Muslim countries do not disregard progress and commerce nor many of “our” “values”; I mean, they make use of it. That seems clear. Nor as a crash of religions, despite all the efforts of Mr. Bush to picture this as a kind of new apocalypse. God is with us! They are the axis of EVIL!



    I think that many of these countries, some of them ruled by killers or genocides (very often supported by our governments or enterprises) have turned against us. It was not hard to foresee, but it seems also that many were blinded before the 11th Sept. How come? Hello?!?!?! :Smug: Before that date, the Yihad existed! 250.000 persons beheaded in Algeria in behalf of it before the 11-S should have moved our reactions. But it was way too far from us. Only when devastation occurs in our countries, catastrophes turn to be heavy as mountains, not only the light feathers they are when they just appear in a small corner of our newspapers.



    Irak itself had always been a quite lay state inside the Arab countries. Ok. Irak didn’t fulfill the resolutions of the UN. Neither does Israel.:err: 700.000 tutsis have been killed by the hutus. 300.000 persons were killed in Irak during the Operation Desert-Storm, and half a million children are dying thanks to the embargo of medicines. Which are our measures here to say WHAT is a priority and WHAT is not, WHO is a genocide and WHO isn´t?



    Regarding this statement about the US not imposing their positions which I found so hilarious, let me just answer to it with another quote:
    (George Bush).




    Finally, as a Spaniard, I will not even try to justify my people and their votes in front of persons who are not aware of the circumstances in my country of origin. But let me just point out something. The government there had become a good substitute of fascism, fact that was shown in a most ashaming and wicked way after the terrorist attacks in my city. Any other interpretation of the events is biased. Any other considerations of why people vote what they vote in democracy is disregarding the sensibility of the population of a country, and denying the intelligence of their vote is a further act of arrogance.



    I’ll write more some other day.
     

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