Heaven and Hell Records joins SOPA blackout

[Justin G]

And yes, we've veered off topic and into the whole downloading debate. Sorry, but it had been a few months.

 

[nailz]

I can help but to think back to when us old folk bought albums going by the album cover; how would have Napster kids handled that?

People also used to do all their work with pens and paper, and then the personal computer entered the working world. Now, if the computer goes down, whoever it is in the chair is like a deer in headlights and can't do anything.

Things change, people adapt. Just because something is older doesn't mean it was better.

 

[dcowboys311]

I guess I'm missing something then. I get the social component here on this forum - demented and sad, but social (bonus Breakfast Club quote) - and can watch video clips of new bands or find more on their sites. If I like what I hear, I can buy the album and put it in my car, CD player, whatever. Downloading an entire album doesn't seem like a vital part of that equation. It does seem to reflect a sense of entitlement. Just because you can acquire an album with the click of a mouse, doesn't make it right.

Ok, I get where you're coming from now.

I definitely agree with the 'social' part but remember -- and even Glenn's made similar comments in regards to fest attendance/forum participation -- most people don't do forums. In my humble opinion, they're great and definitely a huge source for my ever-growing 'bands to check out' list but many people don't do them, for whatever reason. But, let's say that someone is a forum poster, yeah? Then they have to go to youtube to hear one or two or three songs or navigating through a clumsy bandsite. Or, you could read a review on a blog/torrent site and in the same time it takes to watch that one video, have the entire album on your hard drive.

Unfortunately, people are jaded because of the two-good-songs/ten-stinkers trend. Downloading the record eliminates this. You aren't subject to watching the one or two songs the label wants you to see and then the regret from wasting those $15 on 10 garbage tracks. You know up front exactly what you're getting and exactly what you're spending your money on.

I'm certainly not advocating downloading the record and listening to it hundreds of times and never giving the artist or any of the people responsible for the album a cent of your money. I do believe it is a valid and important source for music discovery.

So, overall it's a combination of a few things: convenience, bad history, time invested, and the social aspect.

 

[DuchessOfDork]

So, overall it's a combination of a few things: convenience, bad history, time invested, and the social aspect.

Yes, I agree with all of this.

 

[sicbeanie]

I appreciate opinions that are well thought out-no matter which side of the argument they fall on. Nobody (even Dustin) wants the government to be able to censor or limit the internet-within the realm of legality. Where the topic becomes so sticky is the pirating of not only music, but movies,books and other various creative media that should be paid for by the consumer. Napster saw a swift and decisive shut down once it was established that they were illegally distributing music- why then can we not shut down places like pirate bay and other torrent sites? They are not based in the United States. The SOPA/PIPA laws are not perfect but some of the ideas in them have merit. There needs to be some way that pirating sites located outside the US but that can be accessed in the US can be shut down. Even people like Justin Bieber (eye roll) should be compensated for their work. I am hoping that maybe, just maybe-this is the government after all, that now the legislation is back to the drawing board that it will come out with solutions against piracy (especially overseas based) and not with government sanctioned censorship of the internet over broad and undefined terms. Bearing in mind, of course that websites not doing anything illegal should have nothing to fear- at least that is the hope. On another note- and I hope you dont mind I say this Dustin- I am a close friend of Dustin (Katagory V) and have heard the music waiting to be picked up by a label for release. It by far blows any of their previous music out of the water. They have turned in a different direction from previous records producing some amazing music. I hope it sees the light of day...

 

[Fizrider]

PS some people still buy records based on album covers!

Guilty.

Here is an ethical question... As an "old fart" I have a crap ton of music purchased on vinyl/cassette, and even <gasp> 8-track. Music listening has now changed dramatically from the 70's, because I can carry a room full of albums in something the size of a cigarette lighter. But it is not exactly convenient to digitize a 40 year old record album.

I have compensated the artist (and the recording company) for this music. They were rewarded. To be able to better listen to the same music on today's technology, is it immoral or unethical to download the digital content for free?

I am a believer in TANSTAAFL, but if it is all about "compensating the artist" - how far does that go?

 

[Magius]

Statistics. What a crock.
I know lots of people who download and never buy music, and they're not "music fans" who buy and support bands through concert tickets and merch. It's not just the Napster generation either, as I know 50+ year olds who do it or have their kids do it for them.

No one needs to "sample" a Bob Segar, Rolling Stones, or Beatles song. They know exactly which song they want and why they want it, and download it because they can have it for free. These people didn't stop buying music because some "novelty wore off," they stopped buying it because it's easy to steal it.The attitude is simply "Anyone who pays for something they can get for free is just stupid," which applies to music, movies, software, and anything else they can download.

Some example from other boards I frequent:

"SirrJames:
G-core I LOVE that cartoon,I saved it,its so true it pretty much sums up this entire thread about how most of the general public that I know feels on this subject,as I said I can see how this could be considered stealing and there will always be some ppl who think it is but most ppl nowadays do consider paying for music to be downright stupid,for the most part I am one of them,if you think i'm stealing arrest me,arrest most of the world as well while your at it."

Emphasis added by me.

"Adolfo

LOL! It looks good to go. But I'll wait 'til it comes out online and I could just download it for free. I still haven't seen Rise Of The Planet Of The Apes, yet. I just watched a recent movie called, Hanna. Its about a girl who is trained by her dad to kill a woman in the CIA. It was well written and had a good sense of drama and action."

Downloading might help a little to get exposure in the underground scenes, but even there every song that's downloaded to an iPod without being paid for is money out of the artists' pockets. That's even more true for mainstream artists, since they don't need the exposure. Mainstream albums are downloaded for more than underground albums, and the losses are astronomical. Who do you think lost more money to downloads: Ensiferum or Metallica?
Facebook, MySpace, Pandora, Live 365, and host of legal online sources make the whole "need to sample" by downloading argument a convenient lie to justify stealing.

Bands don't make much money selling music anymore, because so few people buy it. So, a lot of bands now have to make a living touring and selling merch.
You don't think it's a sad state of affairs that a band has to invest a lot of money to release a CD so they have a basis for becoming traveling T-shirt salesmen?

Bands like Therion have tried to do US tours,and lost their butts. They tried twice, and finally gave up completely. I don't see where underground "promotion" helped them a bit. Maybe Therion isn't talented enough to deserve success.

I saw Savatage's "Wake of Magellan" tour with about 30 people. Saxon's "Unleash the beast" tour had about 50 people in attendance locally. Doro played to a whopping 12 people here. Grave Digger did a one off show in NYC a couple of years ago in front of less than 150 people. Accept's tour venues consisted mainly of bars and clubs. That same Accept had at least two platinum albums in the 80's. Obviously the underground promotion from downloading didn't help much. However, they nor anyone else I mentioned is going to make a living touring the US selling a few t-shirts and hoodies each night.
Oh. Let's not forget that the house is going to take it's cut of whatever the band makes from merch.

Recorded music is relatively new, so now that it's old news musicians don't deserve to be compensated for their work. Musicians shouldn't strive to become successful and actually make money from their efforts. How dare anyone try to use their talents to get rich (Damn capitalists might become part of the 1% if that happens). Music if for listeners to enjoy and musicians should be happy to provide that entertainment as a money losing hobby. What a fucking slap in the face to anyone who ever picked up a guitar with a dream!

 

[dcowboys311]

Ensiferum vs Metallica. Metallica likely lost more money and Ensiferum lost money that they would have never had the opportunity to lose in the first place. Ensiferum would have never reached the level of success they have right now and I say that as an Ensiferum fan.

Have you ever thought that maybe there isn't a market for band like Therion here in the states? No, no, no, it must be the piracy...it would NEVER be the cost involved in bringing a circus-sized operation to a metal club or the legal fees involved or the fact that they were an operatic metal band playing in Bumblefuck, Idaho. It was the piracy, dammit.

The Wake of Magellan came out in 1997. I don't know when exactly they toured for that but I'm assuming it was around the same time period. This was before music piracy was rampant so I have no clue what on earth you're trying to say!

Old men singing about Denim and Leather not selling out arenas? What's with the state of the music industry?!?!

You know who went SIX TIMES PLATINUM in the 80's? Milli Vanilli. Show me their draw in the year 2012. What? You mean the show didn't sell out? Must be pirates.

For every band you suggest, there are bands who sell out shows just fine. Not every band will be selling out shows. That's how things were before piracy and that's how things will continue to be. It's called supply and demand. There isn't demand for those bands so no, they will not be as full -- piracy or no piracy. Unless the pirates have figured out ways to download the experience of being at a concert.

I'm talented at sitting on my butt on forums all day long. I should use said talent to get rich! Despite the fact that there is a) no market for it or b) no viable way for it to happen. What a fucking slap in the face to anyone who ever picked up a keyboard with a dream!

 

[J. Golden]

So really, what you're saying is that you're a human lie detector?

See this is one of those forum attempts to start some shit.
Point is it seems like a very lame excuse. It's not like it is difficult to find samples without downloading a bands album.
Then again I remember Ancient Creation getting a review at Blabbermouth and all these people saying they wanted to check it out but did not know where to go and sample it. Apparently thise cats had never heard of Youtube or considered looking up the label or band online where they could easily find tracks. Oh and Reverb...
So since you are just trying to push buttons here I'm going to just step away from this.

 

[sicbeanie]

Magius- you read my mind. Kudos to you for being willing to call people on their bullshit!

 

[J. Golden]

And that's fine if you sit in front of a computer for all your music listening. There are plenty of folks without that time who listen to music in the car, at work, at the gym, etc.

That method may have been enough in years past. In 2012, sampling is sampling. This is the new standard.

And, there are lots of bands who DON'T put that stuff out, at least for the types of music I'm into. I'm sure it's the same for other genres too.

The ice cream shop doesn't give you a whole cup of ice cream to sample, you get a little taste. Goddamnit what makes people so entitled?

 

[sicbeanie]

The ice cream shop doesn't give you a whole cup of ice cream to sample, you get a little taste. Goddamnit what makes people so entitled?

ENTITLED AND COMPLACENT!

 

[J. Golden]

Regardless this has gone off topic from the original point of the topic (through plenty of my own fault) and I still have incredible respect for H&H for participating.

Why thank you.

 

[dcowboys311]

The ice cream shop doesn't give you a whole cup of ice cream to sample, you get a little taste. Goddamnit what makes people so entitled?

Well fortunately for me, I'm talking about copying a digital file that removes nothing from nobody rather than stealing ice cream that directly removes something from somebody. And a bite of ice cream is going to taste the same throughout the entire carton instead of tasting DELICIOUS for the first 15 seconds and leaving a sewage-tasting aftertaste for the next 30 minutes.

 

[DuchessOfDork]

Music if for listeners to enjoy and musicians should be happy to provide that entertainment as a money losing hobby. What a fucking slap in the face to anyone who ever picked up a guitar with a dream!

I feel where you're coming from. I'm a musician too, and it's always been my dream to play to sold-out crowds and fill arenas. Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is that it probably won't happen. It sucks, but a lot of people have my dream. However, one thing that never changed was the love of MAKING music. Nobody can take that away from us, and so long as we love making music, it will always matter to us.

So no, we might not all be rock stars. That's not how the world works, unfortunately. And even the most talented amongst us probably has to work a 9-5. But at least they love the music they're making, and maybe they don't mind not being famous, because they'll never have to sell out to some dick producer, or create something they hate just to make more money. There are still some benefits to being a poor artist.

 

[J. Golden]

People also used to do all their work with pens and paper, and then the personal computer entered the working world. Now, if the computer goes down, whoever it is in the chair is like a deer in headlights and can't do anything.

Things change, people adapt. Just because something is older doesn't mean it was better.

well awareI actually was there doing just that.
And I did not say anything about old being better, though that is usually the case.

 

[dcowboys311]

I wonder how people in other forms of entertainment deal with people sampling their works. Imagine if there were a place where people just got books for free and had access to the whole thing without paying the authors....what a crazy concept that would be lol. The book industry would be crushed.

 

[Justin G]

And a bite of ice cream is going to taste the same throughout the entire carton instead of tasting DELICIOUS for the first 15 seconds and leaving a sewage-tasting aftertaste for the next 30 minutes.

You had to go and bring the new Edguy album into this...

 

[J. Golden]

Well fortunately for me, I'm talking about copying a digital file that removes nothing from nobody rather than stealing ice cream that directly removes something from somebody. And a bite of ice cream is going to taste the same throughout the entire carton instead of tasting DELICIOUS for the first 15 seconds and leaving a sewage-tasting aftertaste for the next 30 minutes.

Damn man the music worked would have been hell for you kids a couple of decades ago. Whatever would you have done?
I wonder how many kids in the 70s and 80s held that KISS, AC/DC, or Van Halen album in their hands and said "but if I had only heard the whole album already and not just that one song". I'm sure that caused many kids to put that record down, certainly the album sales reflect that.

 

[DuchessOfDork]

You had to go and bring the new Edguy album into this...

I like Age of the Joker...........