Novembers Paul
Member
Dan Swanö;8218205 said:
Fantastic idea! And DAMN! It's too late for us with this CD! hahahaha
That's OK, next time.
Mastering of ND albums
- Thread starter Warbitrary
- Start date
Fantastic idea! And DAMN! It's too late for us with this CD! hahahaha
That's OK, next time.
BalanceofPower
My god,it's full of stars
i agree with Mr. Swano on most all of his points.... and Paul is absolutely correct as well. my master exhibits no distortion or pumping, and allows the CD to sit next to other comparable productions released today without sounding "weak" to the average listener. War, you said it yourself... you are a 21 year-old student .... as such you are being taught these things at school, and test them with your own ears and confirm them... and WOW! Now you are going to change the world. i honestly hope you do my friend... when i was 21 i was far more willing to fight for ideals like these, even to the detriment of my income.. because frankly, i didn't have much of one, nor many responsibilities. You will likely find that none of us here disagrees with you on principle; we all learned this stuff years ago, and have watched helplessly as the volume wars have played out, as none of us are "big players" with any real footing in the highest spheres of influence that "TLW" was incubated and came to it's current state in.
however each of us... Dan, Paul, Chris, and myself.... we all have to deliver products that will result in approval by the label and the average fan... otherwise, as in the case with me, dan, & chris especially, they will get rid of us and hire someone with far less scruples and very likely much less skill as well, who will give them the volume they want, but without the attention to the finer details. Far better that we deliver masters that are competitively loud while being able to use our skills and talents to make sure that the line is not slaughtered; that there's no evident distortion, pumping, or other nasty artifacts. it's going to take far bigger fish than us to change the industry. The only thing we can change is how often we are gainfully employed, and as i've said, our replacements may not be so conscientious as we are to avoid nasty, audible artifacts.
i stand by my mastering of both TPHD and TNR, and if you really paid attention you would have noticed clearly that the more dynamic sections are far less restricted... i automated the limiter, allowing for more headroom for these acoustic, more dynamic and delicate, passages.
I've been at audio production for 16 years, and mastering for 13 of those, so i've watched the loudness war develop from just after it got started... and it was the "big name" guys that started it and they all continue to deliver such masters for the same reasons as us smaller guys do now... they all write public diatribes against it of course, some of which you undoubtedly have read. See, it's all very easy to sit in school and read how things should be, then to look at the market and see where it's not living up to those ideals... and to then point fingers. You are neither the first, nor are you the most eloquent, nor will you be the last, to raise these issues to working ME's from the shelter of your school-books and lecturer's notes. We've been hearing it for years, but our hands are tied... if we like getting paid, that is. No, it is best for the average working ME to come as close to meeting current market demands for volume as possible, while attaining optimal frequency balances, and being careful to "do no further harm"(to paraphrase the Hippocratic Oath),..
... if in fact you can universally qualify dynamic restriction as "harm" when it comes to modern metal styles at all, since lack of dynamic range is actually part of the sound these days, at least during heavy passages! Bands like Novembers Doom need a more varied approach though, and i provided that via automation of the limiter and the level at which i hit the converters. Of course it can very easily go south, when bad ME's cause obnoxious distortion, pumping, etc. But a good Mastering Engineer, who works toward satisfying current market demands, the aesthetic of the modern metal idiom itself, and the integrity of the program material, all at once... and balances those issues well... will have happy clients, a solid future, and a clean conscience.
i like Dan's idea of providing multiple versions on a multimedia disc, when appropriate... but, as i'm sure Dan himself will agree, good luck getting labels to adopt the practice as standard.
i do not intend any offense, War... and i hope none was taken. Rather this is meant as a reality check, in regards to both my (and Dan and Chris and Paul's as well) level of awareness and experience with these issues, and to the reality on the ground in the current market landscape.
I admire your progressive stance toward what you are learning... both via school and your own ears... but perhaps your thoughts on these issues are best directed towards the labels, not ME's... because the quickest way to get any industry to change is to influence those holding the purse-strings to mandate that change. Think about it, because it's exactly how we got to where we are now.
that's my piece.
P.S. realize too, as i touched on above, that when it comes to Modern Metal, changing much about the way it's done... since it's come of age in the era of The Volume Wars... may not work too well... and that it may very well sound more "correct" with a more restricted range than R&B, Jazz, Indie Rock, or even in some cases, Pop... in fact it naturally has a more restricted range than those genres, by virtue of it's instrumentation, typical arrangement parameters, and the predominant playing styles.
food for thought.
however each of us... Dan, Paul, Chris, and myself.... we all have to deliver products that will result in approval by the label and the average fan... otherwise, as in the case with me, dan, & chris especially, they will get rid of us and hire someone with far less scruples and very likely much less skill as well, who will give them the volume they want, but without the attention to the finer details. Far better that we deliver masters that are competitively loud while being able to use our skills and talents to make sure that the line is not slaughtered; that there's no evident distortion, pumping, or other nasty artifacts. it's going to take far bigger fish than us to change the industry. The only thing we can change is how often we are gainfully employed, and as i've said, our replacements may not be so conscientious as we are to avoid nasty, audible artifacts.
i stand by my mastering of both TPHD and TNR, and if you really paid attention you would have noticed clearly that the more dynamic sections are far less restricted... i automated the limiter, allowing for more headroom for these acoustic, more dynamic and delicate, passages.
I've been at audio production for 16 years, and mastering for 13 of those, so i've watched the loudness war develop from just after it got started... and it was the "big name" guys that started it and they all continue to deliver such masters for the same reasons as us smaller guys do now... they all write public diatribes against it of course, some of which you undoubtedly have read. See, it's all very easy to sit in school and read how things should be, then to look at the market and see where it's not living up to those ideals... and to then point fingers. You are neither the first, nor are you the most eloquent, nor will you be the last, to raise these issues to working ME's from the shelter of your school-books and lecturer's notes. We've been hearing it for years, but our hands are tied... if we like getting paid, that is. No, it is best for the average working ME to come as close to meeting current market demands for volume as possible, while attaining optimal frequency balances, and being careful to "do no further harm"(to paraphrase the Hippocratic Oath),..
... if in fact you can universally qualify dynamic restriction as "harm" when it comes to modern metal styles at all, since lack of dynamic range is actually part of the sound these days, at least during heavy passages! Bands like Novembers Doom need a more varied approach though, and i provided that via automation of the limiter and the level at which i hit the converters. Of course it can very easily go south, when bad ME's cause obnoxious distortion, pumping, etc. But a good Mastering Engineer, who works toward satisfying current market demands, the aesthetic of the modern metal idiom itself, and the integrity of the program material, all at once... and balances those issues well... will have happy clients, a solid future, and a clean conscience.
i like Dan's idea of providing multiple versions on a multimedia disc, when appropriate... but, as i'm sure Dan himself will agree, good luck getting labels to adopt the practice as standard.
i do not intend any offense, War... and i hope none was taken. Rather this is meant as a reality check, in regards to both my (and Dan and Chris and Paul's as well) level of awareness and experience with these issues, and to the reality on the ground in the current market landscape.
I admire your progressive stance toward what you are learning... both via school and your own ears... but perhaps your thoughts on these issues are best directed towards the labels, not ME's... because the quickest way to get any industry to change is to influence those holding the purse-strings to mandate that change. Think about it, because it's exactly how we got to where we are now.
that's my piece.
P.S. realize too, as i touched on above, that when it comes to Modern Metal, changing much about the way it's done... since it's come of age in the era of The Volume Wars... may not work too well... and that it may very well sound more "correct" with a more restricted range than R&B, Jazz, Indie Rock, or even in some cases, Pop... in fact it naturally has a more restricted range than those genres, by virtue of it's instrumentation, typical arrangement parameters, and the predominant playing styles.
food for thought.
After careful consideration, and some more listening...Paul and I have come to a moment of clarity. We are in the process of booking flights to Florida to confront James Murphy about the mastering face to face, so we can beat his ASSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
OPETH_DT
Member
Srontgorrth
Member
Novembers Paul
Member
Thanks James, lots of interesting info. Reality check indeed.
Of Sculptured Ivy And Stone Flowers is the sweet spot for me, To Welcome The Fade comes close.
Great idea IMHO. Can't wait to hear that.
ROFL
Of Sculptured Ivy And Stone Flowers is the sweet spot for me, To Welcome The Fade comes close.
Dan Swanö;8218205 said:
Great idea IMHO. Can't wait to hear that.
Yes pleaseFantastic idea! And DAMN! It's too late for us with this CD! hahahaha
That's OK, next time.
ROFL
I've said pretty much everything I wanted, go ahead.I'd rather continue talking about Kari Byron, frankly.
NvmbrsDoom5
Member
ha ha ha... bring it on hippies.... i've got nunchuks!!
THAT is fucking hilarious.
The sound of a cd like TPHD is exactly the sound I'd always had in my head, and to have it realised is a blessing.
I dunno if this makes any sense to anyone but me (probably not), but when I listen to our discography I feel like the production of each cd perfectly suits each of them particularly. I too think Of Sculptured Ivy and TWTF sound really good but don't know that those productions would be as well suited for cds like TPHD or TNR. Again I realise it's a matter of personal taste and opinion overall....
Honestly, I'm just fucking thankful as hell to have been able to have talented people like Chris, Dan, James, and Neil K. work on our cds.
Oh and as for Kari Byron (yeah I'm not letting this one go yet)....I think we need more Science teachers that look like her, perhaps it'd make people more intersted in learning something.
AnTz0r
Crimson King
KittyKatatonia
Member
Funny you mention this, Paul. A few years ago I discovered that both Ride the Lightning and Master of Puppets WERE both remastered on gold CDs by the company DDC Compact Discs. They were both a limited run, and now they're kind of expensive (anywhere from $50 to hundreds, depending on the seller and condition), but you can still find them on Ebay.
I wondered how much of a difference the sound quality would be, but after some thought I decided to buy them and found out that there is a BIG difference from the original CDs. They don't sound as loud as stuff today, but you'll hear a major difference believe me. Even the artwork is a much clearer and cleaner print than the original CD releases and the booklets/tray cards better made! If you love both those albums (like I do), you might want to consider looking into them. Here is a link to show you what I'm talking about:
http://cgi.ebay.com/24K-GOLD-RIDE-T...ryZ46354QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Srontgorrth
Member
Its not fun :| In Forensic Science I'm learning and having to memorize 200 something bones and joints
then after that we do muscles. Then we have to dissect a cat :S
Jasonic
Doom On!
Its not fun :| In Forensic Science I'm learning and having to memorize 200 something bones and joints
If you watched HANNAH MONTANA you would know the "bone dance" song she came up with to memorize all the bones..........
"This is the Tibia, and that's no fibia"!!!!!!!!!!!
Srontgorrth
Member
If you watched HANNAH MONTANA you would know the "bone dance" song she came up with to memorize all the bones..........
"This is the Tibia, and that's no fibia"!!!!!!!!!!!
Since when do you like Miley Cyrus? XD Maybe I'll watch it sometime.
