Regarding the misconception about being a "headliner"

[AeonicSlumber]

(note: this has nothing to do with festival)

Echoed in the low attendances thread and from what I've been seeing, I feel like there's a huge misconception about being a headlining band on tour. I keep seeing posts like "eventually x band will become a headliner," but why does that matter?

ANY band can be a "headliner." It's not a special title that is bestowed upon a band. It just means you're the last band to go on and you get paid the most. But if you're "headlining" to less than 100 people a night, why bother? Why NOT continually be a support band until the band's "value" increases.

From a band (Threat Signal) perspective:

http://www.metalsucks.net/2011/10/19/threat-signals-jon-howard-the-metalsucks-interview/


"And what are your guys’ plans for the near future in terms of touring?

Well, we’re trying to line some stuff up for Europe again in 2012. Honestly, we’re looking to be a support band. We don’t want to headline, and we’re just searching for tours. We don’t have anything concrete lined up to tour the US, but we’re trying. It’s a hard game. Everyone’s got a band, everyone wants to be on the road. It’s tough competition. I’m hoping this record gets into someone’s hands, and we’ll get the right tour.

Why aren’t you guys looking for a headlining slot? At this point, you’re probably popular enough.

I want to wait until later next year. We’ve done the headline circuit, and some shows are great, but then at other shows, there’s nobody there. I think Threat Signal is portrayed as a pretty big band on the Internet and by word of mouth, but when it comes down to the shows, it’s hard to get people off their fucking asses and out of their computer chairs. We’ll go to some shows and we’ll be playing in front of 20 people. I respect those 20 people, and we’ll play the show every night and have a fucking blast, but it’s not paying the bills. It’s hard to afford to do that"

 

[TychoCelchu]

Not sure what point you're trying to make here (I didn't read through enough of the other thread to see what misconceptions about headliners are in it).
Bands shouldn't headline unless there's a clear and sustained demand for them to play a full-length set. I think most people and bands get that. Looks like Threat Signal does get it - even if they learned it the hard way. Just because some mediocre third-tier band is playing a headlining show doesn't mean I need to get out of my computer chair. When a band comes through that I want to see, that's when I'll get in my car and pony up the cash at the door. I don't have anything personal against a band like Threat Signal - I willingly watched their set when they opened for Dark Tranq last year. (And they did not come across like a headline-ready band).

 

[AngraRULES]

Just because some mediocre third-tier band is playing a headlining show doesn't mean I need to get out of my computer chair.

I would be curious to hear an example of a band that you consider "third-tier" band. Do you classify that based on personal taste or based on how big the band actually is? Again, just out of curiosity so I can understand your rationale.

 

[Creeps]

I've seen many headliners that didn't play last. Just from PP alone; Epica, Brainstorm, Circle II Circle and Orphaned Land..

 

[dcowboys311]

I've seen many headliners that didn't play last. Just from PP alone; Epica, Brainstorm, Circle II Circle and Orphaned Land..

Those are all good bands but they were not headliners. Epica couldn't headline tours when they played PP, I don't think Brainstorm or CIIC can right now anyway (in the US), and idk how that Orphaned Land tour did. But they didn't 'headline' the event....it's like having Lamb of God open for The Rolling Stones. Is LoG a 'headlining' band? Absolutely. Will they headline that show? Not a chance in hell.

 

[dcowboys311]

Not sure what point you're trying to make here (I didn't read through enough of the other thread to see what misconceptions about headliners are in it).
Bands shouldn't headline unless there's a clear and sustained demand for them to play a full-length set. I think most people and bands get that. Looks like Threat Signal does get it - even if they learned it the hard way. Just because some mediocre third-tier band is playing a headlining show doesn't mean I need to get out of my computer chair. When a band comes through that I want to see, that's when I'll get in my car and pony up the cash at the door. I don't have anything personal against a band like Threat Signal - I willingly watched their set when they opened for Dark Tranq last year. (And they did not come across like a headline-ready band).

A lot of bands go out on tour by themselves so technically they are 'headliners' because many times they end up playing last. For a tour package, I 100% agree with what you just said (ESPECIALLY the part about when to throw down some cash) but I think that bands can go 'headline' whenever they want to. Just need to have realistic expectations and goals.

 

[nomisofsiman]

I've seen many headliners that didn't play last. Just from PP alone; Epica, Brainstorm, Circle II Circle and Orphaned Land..

I think you're confusing show stealers to headliners. There's a big difference. Plain and simple, headliners are the band that brings people in, play the longest set and go on last.

 

[AngraRULES]

Those are all good bands but they were not headliners. Epica couldn't headline tours when they played PP, I don't think Brainstorm or CIIC can right now anyway (in the US), and idk how that Orphaned Land tour did. But they didn't 'headline' the event....it's like having Lamb of God open for The Rolling Stones. Is LoG a 'headlining' band? Absolutely. Will they headline that show? Not a chance in hell.

This.

 

[AngraRULES]

I think you're confusing show stealers to headliners. There's a big difference. Plain and simple, headliners are the band that brings people in, play the longest set and go on last.

He's not. None of those bands were really show stealers, with perhaps the exception of Brainstorm.

 

[dcowboys311]

I mean it's not really indicative of quality or anything if you 'headline'....just means you get the prime time slot and billing. I liked the PP sets from all 4 of those bands.

 

[J-Man]

Also, a band does not have to play last to be a headliner, case in point PPIV, I think Nightwish was the headliner but they choose to play the slot before the last slot. It was a preference for them, That is correct isn't it Glenn.
Plus I have seen some bands out on tour that in some isolated cases will have a big draw local band go on last to get a crowd in and have them stay.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Guys can we STOP bringing up ProgPower as examples? I specifically said this thread has nothing to do with PP, and is about touring. For festivals it is a completely different mindset to put together a bill than a booking agent putting together a package. Both are hard as hell and require a real Samuel L Jackson BMF, but I'm not referring to the fest and I SAID THAT in the first sentence of my OP. Obviously headliner of a festival has a completely different correlation to headliner of a tour.

Otherwise this discussion is awesome!

 

[skyrefuge]

The relevant, simple definition for this discussion:

Opener: a band attempting to expand their fanbase by exposing themselves to fans of the headliner.
Headliner: a band attempting to monetize their existing fanbase.

Right? The opener often expects to spend money, making an investment to grow their fanbase, which they hope to be able to eventually recoup when they convert to a headliner. This definition means that "headliner" is something that applies to a band only in the context of a specific tour, and it has no connection to the size of a band's fanbase.

Neil

 

[AeonicSlumber]

The relevant, simple definition for this discussion:

Opener: a band attempting to expand their fanbase by exposing themselves to fans of the headliner.
Headliner: a band attempting to monetize their existing fanbase.

Right? The opener often expects to spend money, making an investment to grow their fanbase, which they hope to be able to eventually recoup when they convert to a headliner. This definition means that "headliner" is something that applies to a band only in the context of a specific tour, and it has no connection to the size of a band's fanbase.

Neil

bingo. Although I wouldn't say it has "no connection" to the size of its fanbase. I understand where you are coming from though, so for the sake of definition we could say that the crowd a headliner draws is not directly the band's entire fanbase but the fraction of the fanbase willing to spend money on the band's product (in this case product = live show).

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Not sure what point you're trying to make here (I didn't read through enough of the other thread to see what misconceptions about headliners are in it).
Bands shouldn't headline unless there's a clear and sustained demand for them to play a full-length set. I think most people and bands get that. Looks like Threat Signal does get it - even if they learned it the hard way. Just because some mediocre third-tier band is playing a headlining show doesn't mean I need to get out of my computer chair. When a band comes through that I want to see, that's when I'll get in my car and pony up the cash at the door. I don't have anything personal against a band like Threat Signal - I willingly watched their set when they opened for Dark Tranq last year. (And they did not come across like a headline-ready band).

I don't know how you read my post and interpreted as me trying to get you to go to more shows man haha. I am saying that headlining a tour doesn't mean anything unless the band actually is where it wants to be in terms of attendance, monetary earnings. Otherwise, said band will need to continually invest in itself by supporting other bands until it gets to where it needs to be.

My post basically comes from a bunch of other threads and posts, but obviously is most inspired by the big one about attendances. When people say "oh Tesseract is the new Blackguard" or "Scale the Summit is the new Blackguard" they don't realize that these bands would rather spend the first 5 years of its recording career investing as openers than "headline" to 20 people every night. And the point TS was trying to make echoes the one you made. They don't think they are ready to be headliners either.

 

[J-Man]

I don't know how you read my post and interpreted as me trying to get you to go to more shows man haha. I am saying that headlining a tour doesn't mean anything unless the band actually is where it wants to be in terms of attendance, monetary earnings. Otherwise, said band will need to continually invest in itself by supporting other bands until it gets to where it needs to be.

My post basically comes from a bunch of other threads and posts, but obviously is most inspired by the big one about attendances. When people say "oh Tesseract is the new Blackguard" or "Scale the Summit is the new Blackguard" they don't realize that these bands would rather spend the first 5 years of its recording career investing as openers than "headline" to 20 people every night. And the point TS was trying to make echoes the one you made. They don't think they are ready to be headliners either.

Sorry, for the first post, i misread your post, but this one I agree totally. Case in Point you brought up Scale The Summit. When I did Texas Madfest along with Tammy Zepp, and others, Scale The Summit was a band the venue brought in to play before the first day of the Fest, needless to say they were young, talented and blew everyone away. At that time the sold their CDs themselves at their shows in and around Houston, and they go paid for that set $00, they now tour alot with well known bands, they toured with DREAM THEATER, now they have their music on Nightmare Records, Laser's Edge, Amazon, CD Baby, and even CD Inzane and others and are steadily developing a rather large fanbase, will they ever be a Headliner, who knows, but they know that to get there they have to pay their just dues.

 

[Stingray11214]

One glaring example was the show in Brooklyn with Voyager. Voyager was billed as the "Headliner", but it was Creation's End that closed the night. It was sad to see Creation's End play before 10 people, when Voyager played before a packed house.

 

[TychoCelchu]

Just got back to this thread because I went to a show last night (Impiety. They headlined and they totally ruled. They went on after midnight, played a full-length set. I drove an hour back home and then got up for work again this morning. Thankfully coffee is my best friend for life. I'm saying this just to illustrate an example that I will go out of my way to support a band who I think deserves it. I probably won't be able to do this often after age 30, hahaha).

-AngraRULES: I try to take an objective view of a band's status that goes outside of my personal tastes towards them. So if I don't like a band but they are clearly capable of carrying a tour, I recognize that. In Flames would be a good example.

-dcowboys311: I was thinking of you when I had a couple examples of headline bands not playing last on a show because it was pretty common in the hardcore circuit, at least here. For example, when Internal Affairs played here on their last tour, they were "hosted" by a solid-drawing local band. IA were the reason for the show, but this other band basically helped them out by putting IA on before them so they would get to play in front of the densest crowd. In those situations I use the word "host band" to describe the local band that is a support band, but plays after the real headliner. Another example: When Cold World came here, Death Threat played after them.

-Aeonicslumber: I think I confused the issue by partially talking to you and partially commenting on the TS snippet you posted without differentiating between the two topics. I think you're right that we're basically on the same page about the topic.

-Neil: I agree with your assessment, but it's so.... cyborg-ian.

 

[AngraRULES]

Just got back to this thread because I went to a show last night

Attaboy!

 

[skyrefuge]

they now tour alot with well known bands, they toured with DREAM THEATER

And probably paid dearly for the privilege. The fact that they open for larger bands is not an *effect* of their increasing popularity, it's the *cause* of it. It's a sign that they (+Prosthetic) are willing to make an investment in their future. It's not like Dream Theater and Protest the Hero are saying "hmm, those Scale the Summit boys are now popular enough, let's ask them to come along with us!" It's more like "we'll take whoever is willing to pay the fee, even if it's Rebecca Black and her mom is paying the buy-on!"

will they ever be a Headliner, who knows

Argh, you're still using the useless definition of "headliner". It has nothing to do with the size of their fanbase. They surely have already been a headliner, and have several headlining shows coming up in a couple weeks. They're doing them on off-days on the 3/Cynic tour. Probably very few people will show up, but it's a chance for them to make a few bucks on a day when they'd otherwise be losing money (and heck, even test the waters for what they can draw as a headliner before they risk putting together a whole tour as a headliner).

Neil