timing issues

[razoredge]

First let me say from a learned musical prospective Im way over my head, I just come up with stuff and let it flow, sometimes its "weird". THis is prob a question for Meddley or anyone else with some depth of educated musical understanding, please bare with me.

Joe, my drummer and myself are working on this new thing I have. I think its pretty much straight up 4/4, However I have this one change up, a different part that we just cant make the transition into. We have never had this problem before. We worked on the parts separately so he could get his beats down, this part sounds great once we are on the groove. We have been trying for weeks to just jam it out and flow into that part like its supposed to happen. Everything falls apart. So finally he sits and counts over the riff while I play it. Apparently its a five beat thing, but it does starts on 1 and works fine counting 1 2 3 4 5, 2 2 3 4 5, 3 2 3 4 5 ect. I dont know... this must be 5/4 ? That doesnt matter so much because it means little to my understanding. Is there something tricky about transitioning into an odd 5/? beat like that, I dont know about or what the hell is going on ? ... lol

Seriously, never been down this road before, nor had anything of mine count out in 5's. Its too good to change. I want to understand whats happening. If its possible.

edit: I realize its near impossible without hearing it

 

[progmetaldan]

It sounds like its probably bars of 5/8 ie. 5 beats each beat is an eighth note, and if it is this its not THAT uncommon... Perhaps its totally different though...

 

[razoredge]

so if we're playing along in 4/4 and come to this part thats 5/8 we should just be able to switch instantly... on 1 ? I know that sounds like a dumb question and I have assumed thats what we need to do.... but damn are we having a hard time "feeling it". Its awkward as hell, we've been at this for quite some time and havent nailed it yet and cant even figure out what the problem is. Im beginning to think it might be where Im at at the end of the last 4/4 measure and knowing where 1 is the second its time to change. I have a way I play the transition by myself that seems to sound right.... but I cant count and play at the same time... it fucks me up... ... so I may be wrong. Its just over our heads, but we will get it. 4 beats to 6 beats is soooo much easier.

 

[Eternal Dragon]

4/4 = 1234 1234 1234 1234
5/4 = 1234 1234 1234 1234 1234
5/8 = 1234 1234 12

5/4 - So basically you count 5 sets of 1234 (each being a 16th note). While you're learning it you might want to add in an accent on the first note of each set, so that you can feel each beat. If you aren't used to 5/4 you might find that you feel like the bar should end after 4 beats. An example of this is the first part of MJR's paganini song on The Dark Chapter. I always used to cut each bar too short before I started counting.

5/8 - Also accentuate the 1-notes in this pattern while learning it. 2 bars, being 4/4 to 5/8; will sound like 6/4 with an extra 1/8 (2x 16ths). That could be a problem. Maybe try counting each beat 1xxx 2xxx 3xxx 4xxx 5xxx 6xxx 121 (where the last 1 is back at the start).

Throw the problem section into guitar pro and i'll have a look at it. If you don't have gpro its easily available from non-reputable sources .

 

[razoredge]

I'll put it down on Sonar tonight to a non accented click track and see if I can figure out whats going on, thank goodness the tempo doesnt change.

I see what your saying though - count in 16ths 1234 2234 3234 4234 5234 1234 2234 3234 4234 5234 ect

sitting here running it through my head Im getting the feeling theres other things goin on causing the flow problem, one being acute retardation... lol

We know we could solve it by doing a rest but thats beat, we want to hammer from one right into the other. I also thought about writing a transition but wouldnt know how and thats not how we're "feeling" it. I like things to flow out as much as possible without too much thinking. Then tune it later where needed

 

[Altitudes]

Tab it in Guitar Pro and work out the time signature

/problem

 

[razoredge]

We finally resolved our problem here. By recording it we found that we werent giving the last part we were coming out of the time to resolve its last beat before beginning the next part, still a tuff transition due to the different feel and the awkwardness we're having with the change but we did nail it a few times today.... but still failed many more.... lol

thanks to those who tried to help, you actually did !

 

[Fredrik Park]

I´m too late, but I just wanted to mention one thing about 5/8, that it often helps to group them 2 + 3 or 3 + 2, depending on which beats are accentuated, err with accent or whatever it´s called.
This means it in these cases the 2+3 / 3+2 are applyable, the 3 - group really sounds like a fast walz-beat.
the gigantic war drum beat in Lord of the Rings, in that specific orc-scene is a 5/8 beat, divided in 2 + 3 for instance.:zombie:
Hope it helped a bit further...

 

[razoredge]

about the only thing I noticed was - when trying to find the tempo of the song, using my drum presets, the only thing that came close to the right feel for the other parts was a triplet beat. Cant remember now, I dont think it still worked over the part that was stumping me. I'm having serious problems with click tracks unless its a simple basic song progression. With the thing clicking over top of other stuff it just makes me uncomfortable, then.... I can even have the wrong tempo on the clicker and still play at the same pace Im accustomed too ignoring the thing. I dont know hard to explain because I just didnt learn to play by counting. I think its the old dogs/new tricks issue, like when I tried learning to read sheet music, I just couldnt go back to square one and struggle through it. Lack of focus and patience I suppose

 

[Kenneth R.]

Yeah, cause you have to set the click to do what you're doing too- and that's why it seems weird when it's still counting 4/4

 

[Fredrik Park]

Yes, that would be crucial for other than 4/4 bars.
in Sonar, that would be Transport / Set measure/beat at now... or something like that.

 

[razoredge]

This is when I even set it for no accents, just a steady tap.... theres only a few pieces I have this problem with. I think its the upbeat or doted 1/8ths, whatever... it can screw me up at times.

this thing here I was talking about Im not even sure if its a five beat, I recorded it and tried counting to it and did not come up with 5 beats nor 4 nor 6. I have a feeling this particular progression may be compound itself, like a measure of four then one of 3 or whatever, its way beyond me and Im not going to screw up my playing trying to count and play at the same time. All that doesnt matter much anyhow, the two of us can play all pieces together and it sounds good, we just have trouble with the transition, it will come to us... We were close last week, see how it goes this week.

 

[Kenneth R.]

the upbeat and dotted notes won't fit because they aren't on the downbeats.

record it and send it to one of us, we'll figure it out.

 

[razoredge]

exactly and thats why a metronome in very few instances messes with me on some of these riffs

mus'nt leak the new hit song to the masses before its ready for market........... capitolized ROFL

 

[Fredrik Park]

Without even being in a serious band myself, I still double dare you to start counting while practicing complex beats, and let go of counting whenever performing.

It sounds like what you have is a change of measure-beats
- similar beat as e.g. SX´s Inferno, which I regard as a rythmical masterpiece, amongst other things.

For more detailed explanation of Inferno:
The first guitar riff starts off with 4/4, but that´s just the beginning.
When the drum beat starts, it turns into something that sounds like a perfect 5/4 quarter-note measure. But the next one gets cut in between 3rd and 4th, which means it would be easier and more accurate to divide it into eights instead, acctually like 10/8 + 7/8 + 10/8 + 10/8. see for yourself, using your ten fingers, starting from left to right with a pianist hand position.
That´s personally the only way I could possibly nail such rythms theoretically after only a few tries.

Such hairy combination of measures, and although it can be learned by only listen and memorize the feel of it, I still think that it would be more accurate for recording results, to prepare the measures properly in Sonar.

I tried to record a 5/8 measures part of my recent project while still running 4/4 metrome clicks, and I couldn´t do it.
Even if I would change the clicks into the same sound on the first beat of every new measure, I believe that it would be troublesome to post-edit such recording, and also difficult to not get confused by the metronome.
It was soo much easier to record and get the overview, when I set the measures properly in advance.

Perhaps it can help, or perhaps I´m only ruining your momentum with this rythm-geek talk. I cross my fingers for your success, though.
Oh, sorry for the original goof about describing eights as tens! Totally ackward!
Now that would confuse even Tommy Lee Jones in the Fugitive, I bet! It´s getting way late, and I´m not used to describe music theory in English. Still a pretty lame excuse, I know...)

 

[razoredge]

No thats cool, its why I made the post to get some ideas, fully knowing we would still need to do it by feel ourselves because we are DMF's that were self taught and play by feel. Make no mistake this is nothing compared to SX or DT but with my years of listening to fusion and then DT, then SX I seem prone on occasions to have some awkward measures that feel and sound right to me. This is the first occasion I myself cant make the transition and "feel" it. I do feel it one way but its all wrong and nearly impossible for my drummer, we are both only mediocre players, key word - players... not musicians. Twas fun and funny until we became frustrated

 

[Fredrik Park]

Why not give Eternal Dragon, Kenneth R and me all a try.
I would prefer a simple but clear mp3-file myself, and I might have some time tomorrow or Tuesday. (Eek, I on "tomorrow" by two hours already, it´s time to sleep)
I think we could clarify the rythms and beats for you.
I´m a music teacher, and the others are probably great with GP3 and rythms to and what not, but you´re right that we probably need the original tune to be able to help more effectively.
(edit: I´m very confused now, because I really need to sleep. Sorry for all the editing of my own posts.)
(edit2: PM me if you want to send any file to me.)

 

[razoredge]

I'll do a live recording Tuesday, then you will see clearly where we fall on our faces. Its nothin special but different for us and we like it, far from having a direction for it, lyrically or vocally, its just a colage (sp) of 4 sections at this point.

 

[Fredrik Park]

Eureka!

razoredges´s measure time signature (or whatever it´s called in English) solved.

First of the unidentified parts:

Measures are:
4/4, 4/4, 6/8, 6/8, 6/8, 6/8, 9/8 2/4
or
8/8, 8/8, 6/8, 6/8, 6/8, 6/8, 9/8 4/8


face-falling part (not really):

4/4, 4/4, 4/4, 5/4;
and then:
4/4, 5/4, 4/4, 5/4 played 3 times

razor is way modest, because this is definitely really advanced sets of measure changing.
Also, like I told him, it really sounds surprisingly tight to.

 

[inhe]

Tab it in Guitar Pro and work out the time signature

/problem

I know this doesn't help in this specific situation, but using guitar pro made me realize alot about time signatures, it really helps to understand everything. (Not to mention that it's an awesome program by itself.)