Wide guitars and clarity in the center.

[harls]

I've recently been experimenting with making my guitar tracks wider, and I'm interested in what techniques you guys use to let the center of the mix 'breathe' and to get your guitar tracks nice and wide (in the mixing or mastering process, or both). Do any of you like to use stereo wideners and/or mid/side processing, or is it all in the EQ? For example:



YouTube quality aside, you can hear how the guitars are very widely pushed left and right and seem to sit really nice in the mix.

 

[Daybreak]

What we perceive as the "center" is essentially what is equal on the left and right. So, what we perceive as "wideness" is the inequalities in L/R. Now I don't know how that specific track was done, but you could try all sort of stuff - Different EQ's on L/R, different amps, different cabs, slight time variations (wouldn't recommend this, as the mix looses mono compabilitiy), different picks used while recording, different guitars, different players, different amp settings, different compression settings, perhaps using something like the Waves center to seperate the 'center' and the 'sides' and process the sides in some way (like adding highs to make it "float" more over the mix"), practically anything that alters the sound on one side enough make it feel wide but not so if feels unsymmetrical and disconnected from each other!

 

[RedDog]

Try this for super wide guitars.

Pan drums 80% MAX.

Boom wide guitars.

Example:
not wide
Super wide*

*exaggerated for emphasis

 

[alex-sonic]

Try this for super wide guitars.

Pan drums 80% MAX.

Boom wide guitars.

Example:
not wide
Super wide*

*exaggerated for emphasis

What do you mean by pan drums 80%?? With a stereo widener for example?

 

[rapucore]

What do you mean by pan drums 80%?? With a stereo widener for example?

Panning in general. Like if you'd normally pan your stereo OH's and/or room mics 100% left and right, just pan them 80%.

 

[Daybreak]

Panning in general. Like if you'd normally pan your stereo OH's and/or room mics 100% left and right, just pan them 80%.

Could someone elaborate on this technique a bit? Wouldn't panning them 80% instead of 100% make them seem more in the center..?

 

[harls]

Try this for super wide guitars.

Pan drums 80% MAX.

Boom wide guitars.

Example:
not wide
Super wide*

*exaggerated for emphasis

The first clip to sounds wider to me. Perhaps due to more width in the upper frequencies/air?

Thanks for your input, guys. I've experimented with different amps/EQ settings on the L/R guitars without any super noticeable results. I can achieve width with EQ but I can't seem to achieve significant width unless I use stereo spread plug-ins on the guitar bus.

 

[rapucore]

Could someone elaborate on this technique a bit? Wouldn't panning them 80% instead of 100% make them seem more in the center..?

The guitars would seem wider since they would be hard panned.

EDIT:
I don't use the mentioned technique since I don't have any problems getting wideness otherwise.

 

[alex-sonic]

Panning in general. Like if you'd normally pan your stereo OH's and/or room mics 100% left and right, just pan them 80%.

I get it thanks!

 

[Deuteronomy]

Record 4(or even more) rythm guitars and experiment with the panning.
that's why 50 violins sounds "wider" from 1 playing the same melody,the slighty difference of pitch/time makes us percieve things wider.
Also experiment with Reverb/Delay,it really helps

 

[Max Morton]

I love brainworx shredspread. Seems to have a nice widening algo built in. Always saves me when the mix is extremely busy and I need a bit more space between left and right to add, say, an orchestra, a choir and lead vocals.

 

[RedDog]

Could someone elaborate on this technique a bit? Wouldn't panning them 80% instead of 100% make them seem more in the center..?

that's the point.

some of you don't seem to get that hard panning is as far as that little knob goes. Width is about context. if you're not wide enough, something is off balance, or you need to bring something else in to emphasize and compensate. same with eq, but instead of frequency we're talking spatial dimension.

 

[Cephara]

I love brainworx shredspread. Seems to have a nice widening algo built in. Always saves me when the mix is extremely busy and I need a bit more space between left and right to add, say, an orchestra, a choir and lead vocals.

I agree, Shredspread is an awesome plugin. To get full guitars, I use a high pass of 40-60hz and a low pass of around 7.5khz, and with Shredspread i adjust around 150hz to be more mono to sit in with the bass. I used to to use a high pass of about 150hz, but I found using some form of an EQ that can compress 60-300hz preserves the guitar's integrity in the mix. Very gentle tweaks to the spread in Shredspread can really open up a mix. I've tried other ways, but Brainworx's plugin has giving me the best results so far.

 

[Skaldir]

Btw. you can buy Shredspread today for only 35$

 

[theNeologist]

that's the point.

some of you don't seem to get that hard panning is as far as that little knob goes. Width is about context. if you're not wide enough, something is off balance, or you need to bring something else in to emphasize and compensate. same with eq, but instead of frequency we're talking spatial dimension.

^ exactly. A mix can only be spread so far...and that is -100 to 100. Every song ever created has fallen within this realm...including the one referenced. So in order to get "perceived width" you have to trick the ear into believing the song is wider either by pulling the mix closer to the center (the 80% drum spread for example) or a minute delay between left and right guitar, or a different sound between left and right guitar. I mean the possibilities are endless.

 

[Daybreak]

^ exactly. A mix can only be spread so far...and that is -100 to 100. Every song ever created has fallen within this realm...including the one referenced. So in order to get "perceived width" you have to trick the ear into believing the song is wider either by pulling the mix closer to the center (the 80% drum spread for example) or a minute delay between left and right guitar, or a different sound between left and right guitar. I mean the possibilities are endless.

As much as I get the point, it only seems like a quick fix I really wouldn't wanna use.

 

[slo77y]

try the izotope mutliband stereo widener... more stereo towards the high frequencies, and the low mid band (200-600) just a bit more stereo... gives me exactly the result you are after: wide guitars with clarity in the center

 

[smy1]

As much as I get the point, it only seems like a quick fix I really wouldn't wanna use.

That is just your perception then. It's a very valid way to mix and it's being done a lot.

Think about it: drums aren't usually a very "wide" instrument. Everything is within reach of the drummer's sticks, and the further you get away from the drums the more "mono" or "centered" the drumsound becomes because the difference in distance between the drums disappears more and more. So there is absolutely no need or necessity to pan drums 100/100 - unless you absolutely want to. A lot of the time panning OHs closer helps with phase too. Don't ask me why, but it makes it easier for me.

 

[Daybreak]

That is just your perception then. It's a very valid way to mix and it's being done a lot.

Think about it: drums aren't usually a very "wide" instrument. Everything is within reach of the drummer's sticks, and the further you get away from the drums the more "mono" or "centered" the drumsound becomes because the difference in distance between the drums disappears more and more. So there is absolutely no need or necessity to pan drums 100/100 - unless you absolutely want to. A lot of the time panning OHs closer helps with phase too. Don't ask me why, but it makes it easier for me.

Yeah, no disrespect to anyone who does - I just think it sounds more like a way too trick the brain into thinking the guitars are wider than they are (whilst making the drums smaller) then actually widening the whole mix. In that sense, it would be a really legit trick to do in very guitar-driven bands, I guess.

But to each his own! Definitely going to try it sometime, who knows, might surprise me. Just doesn't feel like (pardon the expression) "true" wideness to me.

 

[RedDog]

I just think it sounds more like a way too trick the brain into thinking the guitars are wider than they are

that's the point of this whole thread, no?