2008 Political debate thread

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noble savage said:
Besides, why would the Palestinian PM lie about that? Bush hasn't been exactly modest in his support for religious ideology in America. I can most certainly believe he would say something like that.
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BECAUSE HE IS AN EVIL NON-CHRISTIAN MUSLIM SCUM AND WE ARE AT WAR WITH ISLAM AND ALL ITS PROPAGANDA. INTO BATTLE WEEE RIIIDE WITH JESUS BY OUR SIIDE, WE'RE STONG (Americans) AND NOT AFRAIID TO DIIIE!!!!
 
its all irreversable guys but I just cant get knowing that to stop my blood from boiling. I've been watching this bullshit for 35 years and you keep thinking in good faith "no, they wouldnt really go that far, no way... that won't happen" WRONG !

Ken - 12 - 18 or hell maybe even 22 are damn hard years to focus for many, your always gonna have.. well I presume many that fall by the wayside. Im not makeing excuses, I know, I was there and remember, they could have beat me upside the head with a 2X4 and when they got done all I would have seen was if there was a guitar neck in that 2X4. I actually see myself as an all American boy from the 70's. Girls, cars and guitars, wasnt the smartest thing but wasnt thought to be detrimental to ones future at that point in time either. It was/is in fact quite natural to not be able to focus at that age. In my case I had already found a few nitches and hobbies and wasnt the aimless wondering teenager looking to be found.

I've spent the past 20 years of my life worrying about the next youngsters like me that come along, into a world that has absolutely no fucking use for them, trying to imagine turning someone such as myself into a all domesticated lab scientist, insurance underwriter, cubical worker. Damn, we did have the simple life for awhile I suppose I should be glad for that, the world from here on out will be a giant competition ring... the Coliseum, and the Lords of the corporations with entertain themselves with your blood and you will never rest, never look to the blue sky and smile, if you do they will drop the floor under your feet.

Thinking about all this gives me greater appreaciation for the 70's & 80's, I suddenly realize what we had, we just had to work hard and live life.... we didnt have to prove ourselves daily to some puppet master.... must be it pissed them off.
 
look guys we all know Bush is a wack job but lets not forget the other wack job players, big picture please
 
Mark, we see eye to eye on a lot of issues. I think a drastic overhaul of our culture is necessary to save it. We've already sacrificed much and we've already gotten ourselves into a mess. As for sexuality, I don't think it should even be a political issue. What people do with each other is their own business in my opinion. If they're doing it in public, they should be subject to the same laws as those for heterosexuals doing such things in public. The law should apply equally. I'm not against them getting unions or benefits or whatever they want. We already have an overpopulation problem, I'm not concerned about continuing the species. A gay couple with an adopted kid is better, in my opinion, than a struggling single parent who didn't even want a kid. But that's another issue.

One reason I don't support McCain is, although I respect him as a war hero, he doesn't have any plan for fixing the situation. From what I've heard from him, he simply wants to take up where Bush left off, and try to manage it more effectively. He is pro isolationist. I don't think that's a very viable solution.

Steve, this is where I whip out my conservative side. I look at places like Oxford and Cambridge, and I wonder what happened. Where are all the worldchangers now? We haven't had a person of note in many a year, in any field - literature, science, arts...

Someone in my family just graduated from Harvard this last weekend. He was disappointed in his education. It suffered heavily from that political correctness "take no stance" mentality. It suffered from psuedo science, bureaucracy, and fear of offending. Where did the prestige go? The speech made by the speaker at his Commencement focused on the division between science and religion. It summed up perfectly everything that had gone wrong with Harvard. The speaker, a physicist, presented many dilemmas and tensions between the two camps, but offered no solution, no inspiriation. His resolution was simply "too bad". He argued that science must and should replace the junk religion clung to by the masses. This, from a physicist, shows much ignorance and much closedmindedness. Closedmindedness and ignorance plague America.
 
Here is the thing though, Ken. I know you except evolution and still retain your faith, right? I think more people need to reconcile these two things like you have done. It seems many in America fear the ideas that scientific discoveries implicate. This needs to be overcome or it leads to strange things.

Intelligent design/creationism is a perfect example (Keeping with what I said above). Evolution has been tested and verified time and time again for 150 years. Because of it we have vaccines, medicine and an absolutely stunning model for how life has progressed or digressed. Because many here in America view this as a potential threat to their religion, they have begun to rewrite the scientific system to try and stop it (Kansas is a recent example). That's not right! I think it does an enormous disservice to society when things like this are attempted.

Don't people realize that doing this only does harm?
 
I think jumping to conclusions, via evolution or otherwise, always results in 'bad science'. There's been a massive influx of bad science lately. Scientology is a great example. The whole Global Warming thing has fostered many bad science decisions and papers. Not to say that I don't think there could be a warming problem, but some of the things people think will fix it (if even fixing it is necessary) are plain ridiculous.

I think we need to stop dumping all of our money into Social Security and National Defense and start educating people. I'm not going to let go of the education issue because it is the hub that everything else revolves around. Smarter people wouldn't make bad credit decisions. They wouldn't vote for complete failures and be fooled by words. They would keep their government in check, and advance society in meaningful ways. They wouldn't be obese (hereditary issues aside). Having a smarter society naturally entails having a healthier, more prosperous society.
 
Kenneth R. said:
Someone in my family just graduated from Harvard this last weekend. He was disappointed in his education. It suffered heavily from that political correctness "take no stance" mentality. It suffered from psuedo science, bureaucracy, and fear of offending. Where did the prestige go? The speech made by the speaker at his Commencement focused on the division between science and religion. It summed up perfectly everything that had gone wrong with Harvard. The speaker, a physicist, presented many dilemmas and tensions between the two camps, but offered no solution, no inspiriation. His resolution was simply "too bad". He argued that science must and should replace the junk religion clung to by the masses. This, from a physicist, shows much ignorance and much closedmindedness. Closedmindedness and ignorance plague America.
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The dude's speech sounds about right to me.

I am very much interested in religion and I read up on it, speak to religious people, and learn from it as much as I can. I consider myself fairly enough versed in the 5 majors (although there's always more learning to be done!) without having to actually commit all 5 religious texts to memory and I'm pretty happy that I understand more about say, Islam, than the average American. I think in fact, that more Americans should learn about Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism and hell, even learn more about Judeo-Christianity (cause let's be honest, the average American doesn't even know why he is celebrating Easter in the first place!) as well.

With that being said, I am an atheist for a reason. It is wholeheartedly sickening to see people in this day and age, try to disprove science with religion. Whether we like it or not, science and religion are very much opposites and are "at war", if you will. It is also very possible, that we will never understand why were are here or how existence came into being, but the fact remains that science is about observing the natural world and then applying those observations. This is the process that gave us the computer, the television, the car, the telephone, etc etc etc, so it pisses me off to see these religious whackos tell us that evolution is wrong. Selective science is wrong, and that's the philosophy that theists abide by. "Science is OK as long as it doesn't interfere with my God". So the fact is, yes the guy is right.

Also, Scientology has virtually nothing to do with science... lol Science is the study of the natural world. Scientology is basically watching Battlefield Earth as if it was a documentary.
 
Kenneth R. said:
I think jumping to conclusions, via evolution or otherwise, always results in 'bad science'. There's been a massive influx of bad science lately. Scientology is a great example. The whole Global Warming thing has fostered many bad science decisions and papers. Not to say that I don't think there could be a warming problem, but some of the things people think will fix it (if even fixing it is necessary) are plain ridiculous.

I think we need to stop dumping all of our money into Social Security and National Defense and start educating people. I'm not going to let go of the education issue because it is the hub that everything else revolves around. Smarter people wouldn't make bad credit decisions. They wouldn't vote for complete failures and be fooled by words. They would keep their government in check, and advance society in meaningful ways. They wouldn't be obese (hereditary issues aside). Having a smarter society naturally entails having a healthier, more prosperous society.
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The global warming thing has also struck a nerve with me. I have drawn two conclusions. The first:

The world will come out of this cycle on its own. We are merely witnessing some sort of naturally occurring event.

Second: We will all be dead in 50 years if what they say is true and it doesn't matter what anyone thinks. Although if we are causing it, I hope so much we can fix it if it's not too late. Alternative energies, dammit!!

Freebie. The third is a given: Fuck the media who jump on this topic obsessively. They need taken out back behind their studios and sacked. Nothing sells better than a global disaster!:mad:

...Andtimebegan. I'm an Atheist for many of the same reasons as you are. I have already got into this a million times though so I'm not going to elaborate again. Unless you want to discuss.

Scientology is a scary cult! I have family who live near Clearwater, Florida where the world HQ is and that whole place is beyond freakish. L Ron Hubbard was quoted on many occasions saying something like:

"Religion, that's where the money is at." :lol:
 
I don't hate Scientology as a religion, in fact I am wholeheartedly against the concept of one group of religious people saying that someone else's religion is wrong. Judeo-Christianity is just as whacky and nonsensical as Scientology if not more. I was just noting that Scientology has nothing to do with Science. I'm sure the writers of the old and new testaments said the same thing as Mr. Hubbard.

As for global warming- it's real. We have evidence of previous mass extinctions in the past because of global warming, and it's very possible that we could be contributing to global warming. We're a part of this earth just like volcanoes, so I fail to see why people think that we are exempt from nature. While scientists might be in disagreement over this current global warming situation, any legitimate scientist acknowledges the greenhouse effect. If that's the case, of course too much greenhouse gasses in our atmosphere could prove problematic.... lol
 
Yeah, Scientology is not science. That's why I mentioned it. There's a lot of "not science" going around presented to people as fact. It's deplorable.

The guy speaking was wrong because he didn't say anything. He just said "these people hate each other." For a graduation speech, that's about as crappy as it comes. No resolution, no suggestion for how to proceed. He's clueless. It's not about proving or disproving A vs B. It's about reconciling the two together in a social context. Religion and science are only "at war" for the ignorant who cannot find the subtle difference of claims. Attempting to disprove one with the other is a waste of time because they do not intersect. Theists do not abide by selective science. Not the intelligent ones anyway. I certainly do not. And that brings me back to why I even mentioned it - we need to educate these people. The theists and the atheists both. We need a smarter, more capable society that can present breakthroughs and solutions rather than throwing our hands in the air and declaring "we can't fix this problem, we don't know how, we just hate each other."
 
Most theists abide by selective science- even in the most minute of circumstances. I also agree that education is the key as I stated earlier. Another problem is indeed is that there is too much presentation on religion's part, that their texts have any historical legitimacy whatsoever. It's ridiculous that we as a culture sit back and we actually believe, even as non-believers, that the old and new testaments were historically accurate. This is how religious wars are started and is one of the main problems of religion in the first place.
 
I'm pulling for Obama. I'm not sure that the Republicans have any credibility in terms of claiming to be fiscally responsible or having an effective tax policy. I'm also not a fan of numerous Republican social values/stances and largely disagree with their approach to the bungled war in Iraq.
 
...AndTimeBegan said:
Most theists abide by selective science- even in the most minute of circumstances. I also agree that education is the key as I stated earlier. Another problem is indeed is that there is too much presentation on religion's part, that their texts have any historical legitimacy whatsoever. It's ridiculous that we as a culture sit back and we actually believe, even as non-believers, that the old and new testaments were historically accurate. This is how religious wars are started and is one of the main problems of religion in the first place.
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There is, actually, a lot of documented historical accuracy in the old testament (not talking Genesis, the later books.) that has been reached, ironically enough, by science. There really should be no disharmony between personal belief and the inquiry for understanding. If there is, then the individual in question has created for themselves a mental error. But this is the political thread.

If you'd all noticed, I have tried to avoid throwing around such words as "democrat" "republican" "conservative" liberal" (except in the case where I noted that doing so would be meaningless as there is a time for each) or other polarizing identifiers. When we begin to perceive society as a collection of individuals rather than a set of ideals roughly shared by those individuals, we better are poised to serve the whole rather than just one of those selective ideals.
 
Kenneth R. said:
If you'd all noticed, I have tried to avoid throwing around such words as "democrat" "republican" "conservative" liberal" (except in the case where I noted that doing so would be meaningless as there is a time for each) or other polarizing identifiers. When we begin to perceive society as a collection of individuals rather than a set of ideals roughly shared by those individuals, we better are poised to serve the whole rather than just one of those selective ideals.
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While that's an admirable stance presidential elections at this point simply provide us with a candidate positioned on either side of that line. I'm simply disinclined to agree with a significant portion of Republican/conservative values and, as such, would not vote for a candidate that represents the party that holds those values.
 
Well, I am glad to see there are those that are thinking about things and putting forth ideas and options, thats why ahead of any politician. Education while I support it, is not going to save a thing, it will save a few, but not the masses. Everyones not going to be a rocket scientist, everyone is not even going to make it to college. At this point we need the jobs back that our highly educated corporate managers and board member dimwits sent overseas for the extra bucks in their pockets. After all we are the big consumer country so we could have been consuming our own products and keeping people off the streets and off crack and off welfare. Sure an education can make one feel good about themselves but a job... a productive job no less can really give a person life. Now we are in a huge oil crunch.... thus proving a very sensible move to ship products all the way from China and Korea to sell on our shelves... No ? I realize I didnt get the education and all but dont those huge ships burn a wicked tank of oil ? So lets see... we're without production jobs, have little national product by comparision to 40 years ago, drive further and further to find work, ship in our products from halfway around the globe and are running out of oil... because these places halfway around the world now need the oil too... OK thats their right.... BUT OUR GOD DAMN JOBS WERE OUR RIGHT !

I want to see someone with the balls to stop the outsourcing and the immigration in its tracks. As well as promote American owned industry back into America and pounding those that left so they cant afford to import their products.... I'll show you how to balance a budget. All this office bullshit that makes it appear Americans are productive working people is going to come to a head. Most of its little more than scaming the best available percentage of others incomes as well taking advantage of ignorant workers in impoverished countries or the selling of services that people do not need, advertising and other such bullshit.

Dont imagine anyone is up on the Steel/Iron fiasco of the past few decades ? Shear stroke of genious that... well they broke the greedy steel Unions... by God ! Funny how steels gone up 400% since, comes and goes via China... real handy... No ? and efficient... ya ?

Science people need to stop worrying about those people of faith, just as there are many of the scientific (evolution) community you could not trust, religion contains its own snakes.... however I will trust a person of faith much further than those that want to tear it down to support their personal agenda of greed, to live without codes, ethics, or morals. Everytime I see a snake walk on two legs I get the urge to chop its head off with a shovel, a few hundred years of this form of genetic cleansing would get evolution back on track.
 
With respect to being educated, it's not so that everyone can be rocket scientists and lawyers. You need to learn to crawl before you can walk, and as a whole I think Americans are still in the crib crapping themselves. Most people do not know things that are supposed to be general knowledge. Go up to anyone in the street and ask them how many people live in America. Then ask them when the Sex and the City movie is being released. I watch Jaywalking and it's supposed to be funny, but more often than not it makes me cringe when people don't know the answers to simple questions Jay Leno asks.

Our literacy rate is despicable. What's even worse is that if someone can read and write above a third grade level in another language, they're considered literate! These standards are incredibly low, and countries we make fun of for being backwards like Eastern European nations have us beaten in these categories. The point of education is to show people where they've come from so they know where they're going. It's also important to have qualified people teaching their respective subjects. History is taught in many high schools by coaches who stay three pages ahead of the class.

With respect to immigrants taking our jobs, really? Would you like to go pick fruit? Certain jobs that seem like bullshit do require a high amount of skill, for example, being a butcher. It used to be a lucrative profession Americans could aspire to pursue. Then it was turned into an assembly line sort of deal that moves way too fast during production. Now the meatpacking industry is one of the most dangerous places to work. My point is that outsourcing isn't the only thing to blame for the job shortage, but automation can be, too. Am I saying we need to go backwards? No, that would be silly.
 
You are correct, but there has been alot more lost than just a few mentions, so complacency in this respect does no good, as everyone shrugs their shoulders and walks away with the problem still present. One of the biggest problems with the jobs such as landscaping and construction is immigrant labor has kept labor rates down and Americans dont want to work so they can take a step backwards every month when it comes time to pay the bills... let face it we dont live in a house with our fathers and 8 brothers and cousins... we live like Americans and have assumed bills, morgages, rent, car, our own family, ect. everyone wants to ignore this... or blame someone born and raised in America for not being willing to go back to living like Americans did say around 1900 when we too had huge extended families living under one roof... Americans fought hard to get out from under that, fair labor practices and such, it took decades... so theres one example of reverse that we are engaging

Picking fruit should be a teenagers job, in fact mandatory would not hurt... seriously... it would give them work ethics and learn to appreaciate whats it like to actually earn ones keep. Around these parts thats what teenagers did when I grew up, picked on the fruit farms, mowed lawns, or in my case laid up sod and threw hay bails. Thats stuff builds character and work ethics rather than pussys. It can also help to teach a teen to keep his nose in the books or he could be looking at hard work his whole life, then again as I said initially there are also people like myself that ate that fresh air, honest, hard and challenging work up ... why should we be punished? I knew a few butchers, somehow we eliminated them, probably all this prepackaging.

Automation has eliminated alot of jobs, two of the fields I have been in. Lineman, many people were employed when they first built power/phone lines in this country, naturally that was something that ran its large scale course but after that bucket trucks and diggers eliminated alot of the man power. That was minor compared to what happened to logging. Mechanized logging equipment would produce and consume in a month (or less) what would keep my family and business in good keep for a year... but all they would do is make astronomical payments, flood the market and eat up acreage. Theres more than one way to get it in reverse.
 
Oh education, we all got education, I dont know what it is everyone proposes be done, school sucks, how about figureing out how to make school not suck, that might keep some young people awake and actually want to go sit inside with thier nose in the books when the sun is calling to them out side. This literacy thing, I have not known an illiterate person my entire life. This must be an inner city and honestly for the most part a racial issue. Another example I can use myself for. I take all kinds of shit because I can't spell and ignore "proper" punctuation, I did the entire school thing, 12 years, learned writing in 3rd grade, all the BS in 7th & 8th, right through to Shakespear by my junior year, in fact english was about my only class of interest due to poetry and Shakespere and such. None the less I can not spell for shit and never have been able to, I can hit a word I may have spelled correctly just the day before and sit there and stare at it and not know what the fuck is wrong with it, only that its not right. This is me and many other people walking the face of the earth. At the same time we have seen the self proclaimed highly educated, therefore "intellectual" stumble over the simplist of functions, get all weird should dirt happen to intrude upon their skin... I should have amde a list all these years, I've seen some stuff I just couldnt believe.

Again my point, it takes all kinds and before we critize the weakness of others we should see and face our own, then look at what these others may do for us that we are happy to be free of and PAY THEM PROPERLY GOD DAMNIT !

{Im not really a psychopath, just sick of the bullshit.... and desperately needing a cigarette.... lol}
 
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